Author Topic: Major screw up...miracle required (broken bolt)  (Read 875 times)

Offline Steverat

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Re: Major screw up...miracle required (broken bolt)
« Reply #15 on: 05.01. 2019 20:22 »


Here's an example of what can be done with Lumiweld. The surface had to be smoothed with a file first. The screw was left in the hole - the Lumi doesnt stifck to it, so it forms its own thread in the solidifying Lumi. We used acetylene for speed, but of course Nick was careful not to overheat.

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1972 Triumph T100R Daytona
1924 B-S SS80
1965 Triumph SH Cub
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Online muskrat

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Re: Major screw up...miracle required (broken bolt)
« Reply #16 on: 05.01. 2019 20:58 »
G'day fellas.

I've never used Lumiweld and if the job goes really pear shaped it may be the only answer. Just waiting to see the outcome of the bolt/helicoil removal.
Cheers
ps: modified posts to get back on track.
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Offline UncleD

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Re: Major screw up...miracle required (broken bolt)
« Reply #17 on: 05.01. 2019 21:18 »
Morning all,
Can't say I'm looking forward to the day in the shed today but this is where the journey has led.

I will give the torx head a crack but only once or twice...I don't want to be jamming things in there too much.  Second strategy will be Dremmel and pick, Dremmel and pick... ad nauseum... until either the helicoil gives up or I do.  The biggest challenge is the position of the bike...it's not only hard to reach, but also hard to see (damn these eyes).

After that, it's probably going to require dismantling the engine to allow the use of more precision equipment.  In reality, even if the helicoil comes out, Inserting a sound /square replacement is probably going to require this as I suspect it was the working angle that got me into this position in the first place.

Northern Territory, Australia

Online RichardL

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Re: Major screw up...miracle required (broken bolt)
« Reply #18 on: 05.01. 2019 21:23 »


Here's an example of what can be done with Lumiweld. The surface had to be smoothed with a file first. The screw was left in the hole - the Lumi doesnt stifck to it, so it forms its own thread in the solidifying Lumi. We used acetylene for speed, but of course Nick was careful not to overheat.

That's a nice job similar to the videos, but I would call that a less critical spot by a, likely, more experienced user. Doesn't mean a person can't practice and develop the skill.

Richard L
Plan on signing up for the world-wide 2017 DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDE on September 30, 2018. Watch website at https://www.gentlemansride.com for details.

Online groily

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Re: Major screw up...miracle required (broken bolt)
« Reply #19 on: 05.01. 2019 21:29 »
I did duTch. But it was awkward.
I'm very lucky as I have a dilapidated barn big enough for a four post hydraulic lift I got from an internet seller of ex-garage stuff about 16 years ago. (Very handy as you can get 4 bikes up at once if necessary, for group therapy.)
Otherwise it would have been 'drain the fluids, off with the battery, and an old mattress', which would have worked too.
Bill

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Re: Major screw up...miracle required (broken bolt)
« Reply #20 on: 05.01. 2019 21:34 »
I have nothing technical to add to the excellent comments, but I would like to say we have all had the, "You f*&^&*, b*&^%*, &*^%, son of a b*&^%$" moments. *problem* *problem*  One of these came yesterday when my wife pulled into the driveway in our one year old car clipping my car and leaving dents and scrapes down half of her car. *clap* *clap* *angry* *angry* *angry*  I checked mine and found the headlight all over the place.  Just got in from filling the dent in the wife's car - headlamp on mine fixed. *wink2*

Just goes to show that if you don't screw up (pun not intended) your own day, someone else will oblige. *razz* *razz*

Online chaterlea25

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Re: Major screw up...miracle required (broken bolt)
« Reply #21 on: 05.01. 2019 22:24 »
Hi All,
From memory using oxy acetylene is not recommended for lumiweld ??
Original Lumiweld is darker in colour than the ally
I have used Lumi and another similar product, "technoweld" ?? this comes in a coiled wire not rods like lumi
It is nearer in colour to ally,
There used to be a guy at all the bike shows "welding" up holes in coke cans and joining up bits of old broken castings and selling technoweld, I haven't seen him for a while now though

The biggest problem with these products is getting the area of the casting up to correct temperature to get the metal to bond properly, hard to do on crankcases and so on

I now usually get a friend who is a whiz with the TIG to do my ally repairs

As to accessing the underside of bikes, once I hung a Yam SRX upside down on a gantry crane as a pebble had fallen down the plughole into the cylinder  *problem* *problem*

John
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Offline Daithi

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Re: Major screw up...miracle required (broken bolt)
« Reply #22 on: 06.01. 2019 01:54 »
UncleD,
I hope you are having a cold one by now and have the sump back on.

Just to throw my 2¢ in.. Don't use an ez-out if you can avoid it, as you have snapped a bolt already there is a fairly good chance it will snap. Been there... it sucks .

Here is my take
Remove the battery, petrol and oil tank and if you have to ask to herself to pass the mattress out the bedroom window, do it. You really don't want to stuff this one up. You need to be square with the sump to succeed here.
Get your hands on (depending on what size you have drilled to) a TOP quality "left hand" tap and die set. Thread the offending hole and with a bit of luck the heat and friction will shift the helicoil as you do. If you have no joy then get a doner hi-tensile bolt and thread it up as a new stud to suit. This may just get you out of a hole and back on the road for the mo. Best of luck!
Dave

Offline kiwipom

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Re: Major screw up...miracle required (broken bolt)
« Reply #23 on: 06.01. 2019 02:44 »
I have nothing technical to add to the excellent comments, but I would like to say we have all had the, "You f*&^&*, b*&^%*, &*^%, son of a b*&^%$" moments. *problem* *problem*  One of these came yesterday when my wife pulled into the driveway in our one year old car clipping my car and leaving dents and scrapes down half of her car. *clap* *clap* *angry* *angry* *angry*  I checked mine and found the headlight all over the place.  Just got in from filling the dent in the wife's car - headlamp on mine fixed. *wink2*

Just goes to show that if you don't screw up (pun not intended) your own day, someone else will oblige. *razz* *razz*

 I bet it was your fault for leaving your car in the wrong place, cheers
A10.G.Flash(cafe racer)Honda 250 vtr. Yamaha Virago XV920.

War! what is it good for?Absolutely nothing, Edwin Star.
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Offline Steverat

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Re: Major screw up...miracle required (broken bolt)
« Reply #24 on: 06.01. 2019 07:13 »
Hi All,
From memory using oxy acetylene is not recommended for lumiweld ??
Original Lumiweld is darker in colour than the ally
I have used Lumi and another similar product, "technoweld" ?? this comes in a coiled wire not rods like lumi
It is nearer in colour to ally,
There used to be a guy at all the bike shows "welding" up holes in coke cans and joining up bits of old broken castings and selling technoweld, I haven't seen him for a while now though

The biggest problem with these products is getting the area of the casting up to correct temperature to get the metal to bond properly, hard to do on crankcases and so on

I now usually get a friend who is a whiz with the TIG to do my ally repairs

As to accessing the underside of bikes, once I hung a Yam SRX upside down on a gantry crane as a pebble had fallen down the plughole into the cylinder  *problem* *problem*

John

You are right but oxy acetylene is able to get the parent metal temperature up quickly so it actually works fine so long as you don’t overdo it. Best to practice on something first. Nick is already a skilled welder and he got the hang of it straight away - but having watched him do a couple of jobs now I think I could do it too. Even with my shaky hands.

1951 BSA A10 - now returned to Germany
1972 Triumph T100R Daytona
1924 B-S SS80
1965 Triumph SH Cub
1960 AJS M18CS

Offline UncleD

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Re: Major screw up...miracle required (broken bolt)
« Reply #25 on: 06.01. 2019 10:39 »
Evening all,
Firstly a huge thank you to all.  While none of the suggestions were miracles, all were encouraging and informative and after all, there is only one way out of the Poo like this...cool, persistent and careful!

I went shpping this morning and bought a variety of Dremmel bits, a new scribe and pick set and even one of those jeweller,s magnifying, LED headpieces!

At the end of the day it was the Dremmel & pick method.  Dremmel away a thread of bolt...pick and pull a thread of helicoil ...and repeat until both are removed.  I had a couple of breaks when my swearing threatened to escalate to throwing things...remember, cool, careful and persistent.  Eventually all the junk was out and even a bit of stud from the PO which caused the fiasco in the first place.

I managed to get all the crap out with minimal damage to the substrate such that I could screw in a new helicoil.  The cherry on top was that the broken sump bolt was long enough to be used until I can find a replacement.

Many thank to all for keeping me focussed and positive ...now for my next major F'up!

Northern Territory, Australia

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Re: Major screw up...miracle required (broken bolt)
« Reply #26 on: 06.01. 2019 16:40 »
Whew! Good for you. Did you do this all while laying under the bike? If so, is there a circus near you that needs a contortionist? Since you won't need it here, now might be a good time to start practicing your Lumiweld technique. *smile* *work* *whistle*

Richard L.
Plan on signing up for the world-wide 2017 DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDE on September 30, 2018. Watch website at https://www.gentlemansride.com for details.

Offline UncleD

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Re: Major screw up...miracle required (broken bolt)
« Reply #27 on: 06.01. 2019 21:11 »
Yep, laying under the bike...lifted about 40cm by a jack, but still only far enough away that my eyes could focus! 

The difficulty was having the tools in the right place so I could pick them up by feel as I couldn't lift my head far enough to see them.  The swearing was when my system broke down and I had to get up to find something...who needs to go to the gym for sit-ups and stomach crunches!

Northern Territory, Australia

Offline BSA_54A10

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Re: Major screw up...miracle required (broken bolt)
« Reply #28 on: 07.01. 2019 08:36 »
I am not a fan of Lumiweld or any of the similar products either.
Most of them are just a zinc based alloy, which s why they are a darker colour , a lot more bluer.
In sub critical places like a chaincase where the foot peg has gone through, fine but on the oil pump mount, you are dancing with the devil.

The thermal expansion of all of these alloys is nothing like that of aluminium - silicon alloy that the cases are made from.
Secondly it does not adhere to dirty metal which is why when the demonstrator is showing off the stuff, they usually blow a hole in the casting so it has a nice clean surface then proceed to fill the hole with the Lumiweld
Most of them are around 5% Al where there is a eutetic point as seen in this diagram https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-Zn-Al-equilibrium-phase-diagram-26-The-vertical-thin-line-represents-the_fig5_239521389
Compositions either side of that point will be workable ( mushy ) for a short period before they solidify which is where you are working by scraping the surface under the "weld" puddle with the stainless brush or titanium scraper to break up the oxide layer on the parent metal. It is thermodynamically similar to lead wiping and chemically not too far off either.

Note this diagram is simplified  to a binary one and remember you are trying to repair an Al-Si or Al-Si-Cu alloy not pure Al.
Zn & Si do not alloy so the Zn has to disolve ( like sugar in your tea )  into the Al ( Alpha phase ) in the casting and push the Si out of the way.
The Si accumulates in the grain boundary regions making the repair very stiff & quite brittle.

For a region such as under the oil pump, real welding is the only option and I would go with torch welding rather than electric welding.
Been a long while since I have been playing in this region but from memory there are some cross drillings that run very close to the mounting stud holes & I fear that you may have breached one of them so now the helicoil is out have a very close look at the hole with your new magnifiers .
Good luck
Bike Beesa
Trevor

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Re: Major screw up...miracle required (broken bolt)
« Reply #29 on: 07.01. 2019 10:26 »
G'day Trevor.
The topic went a little sideways. Its not the pump but the sump where the problem is. A stud hole for the sump plate.
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS now A10CR, '76 XT500, '77 AG175 '83 CB1100F, '81 CB900F project.
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