Author Topic: I'm smoking on the right too!  (Read 2281 times)

Offline Steverat

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I'm smoking on the right too!
« on: 20.02. 2019 14:17 »
Josef's bike is up together now, looking fairly tidy.
It started second kick.
But white oil smoke! And so much of it! Its a well-filled wet sump, on taking the sump plate off, nearly 400cc fell out. I put it down to my over-enthusiastic hand pumping the largely new engine before starting (plugs out, top gear and rolling the back wheel forward by hand to get oil into the engine). Sure enough on restart - no smoke. But only for a couple of minutes, then  back it comes, mainly from the right hand side too. The scavenge side is working, oil is streaming back into the tank, but I'm thinking either

- its not strong enough
- the anti wet sump valve in the crankcase isnt working.

All this in an engine which has a new SRM oil pump, carefully fitted with the SRM gasket.
Obviously the timing cover's got to come off. But when I'm staring at the new pump and theres no obvious fitting mistake, what else shall I do? Its got a new timing side main bearing, new big ends. The inner anti-syphon valve is in there, I felt it with a matchstick before putting the oil pump on. Is the SRM pump just belting too much oil into the engine? And surely it shouldn't be leaking oil into the crankcases when stationary?

1951 BSA A10 - now returned to Germany
1972 Triumph T100R Daytona
1924 B-S SS80
1965 Triumph SH Cub
1960 AJS M18CS

Online bsa-bill

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Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
« Reply #1 on: 20.02. 2019 16:13 »
Quote
Is the SRM pump just belting too much oil into the engine?

If it is it should also be belting it back through the return to the oil tank (return side should have more capacity than feed side),  no offence intended (most of us here are human and commit stuff we'd like no one to know about) but check the  gauze on the sump plate, the hole for the return pipe to intrude into is not symmetrically sited so could partially block the return
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Offline Swarfcut

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Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
« Reply #2 on: 20.02. 2019 16:43 »
Steve...Well done, looks rather good!!!  Run the speedo cable on the outside of the exhaust pipe  lower bracket, and secure it away from the hot pipe...melted outers leak oil. Looks to be enough slack.

 Now, in an effort to cheer you up, and  put things to rights.

  Before you put the hammer to it, just a few things to consider.  With the engine running, if the oil tank level stays more or less the same, then flow and return are balanced, and the system is doing what it should.  Oil level constantly falling with the engine running is a leak on the pressure side, possible but unlikely, unless something major amiss, overwhelming the scavenge capacity. Or a restricted return, eg a kink or blockage in the pipes or an air leak between the sump ball valve and the pump, anything meaning the pump cannot scavenge  100%.

    Oil leaving the tank into the sump over time while the bike is unused is normal, as the little anti wet sump valve in the crankcase is at best rarely a 100% seal. In daily use this is of no consequence, but a pain on bikes left standing. With the engine running, oil pressure holds this valve open to allow oil flow. It only closes to seal with the engine stopped, and stop gravity fed oil flowing down through the pump, and into the sump via the bearings.

 Considering the oil return, if you have a magnetic sump plate, is the magnet restricting the movement of the sump ball valve? Is this valve working OK?

 Oil flow back to the tank will vary from a constant high velocity stream to a regular low volume gobbing, depending on engine speed and return oil volume. Is the oil in there the right stuff, not some of your modern  thin 5W30?

  Worth checking the pressure regulating valve, PRV. The ball, seat and spring obviously need to be up to the job.  Bear in mind the piston rings and bore  will need a little bit of use to bed in and seal.  If the oil level stays OK with the engine running, then a bit of use could be all you need.  I would get the lubrication system sorted first before worrying about the fine detail of a bit of smoke from a new rebuild.

  If you do decide to take off the timing cover, pressure feed the timing bush from the PRV oilway, look for a leak between the outside of the bush and crankcase. Very unlikely, but possible as this joint is subject to oil pressure.

 All this assumes the bearings are running at the correct clearances.....and you did replace those sludge trap plugs! No, only joking.

   If the tank empties significantly over a short time, when left standing, yes, the anti wet sump valve isn't working. The quick fix is a tap in the supply line, linked to the ignition to prevent accidental dry starts, or a trip down memory lane to revisit all the hard work you did a few short weeks ago to strip, clean and replace that pesky little valve.  Was that a four lettered word?


 Swarfy.

 Additional..The marked oil level on the tank looks a bit low. Have you filled it to the published oil capacity?.

Online Greybeard

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Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
« Reply #3 on: 20.02. 2019 16:59 »
How much running has it had? You should not leave the engine running for long at this stage; take it for a ride. You may find that the smoke will clear.

Bike looks lush!

The front brake drum lever is not at the best angle.



Online chaterlea25

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Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
« Reply #4 on: 20.02. 2019 20:02 »
Hi All
Mysteries of the internet/ the reply I sent earlier has gotten lost in transit  *conf*

Steverat,
Did you drain the sump after the second running to see if oil is accumulating there?
Are the rocker oil feed bolts drilled the correct size? 3/64in.
Already mentioned is a restriction in the return line, and check the oil tank breather is clear
Check to see if there's oil in the offending cylinder,
If both look near enough the same oil wise, remove the offending side exhaust pipe and see if oil is leaking down the guide, Head flooding with oil ???
The last suggestion is the one you don't want to hear ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, a broken piston ring  *eek*

If the return side is working properly it should clear any oil the feed side can deliver,
Unless there is a massive gravity leak on the feed side

Very little oil should leak through the new pump
It might be worth leaving the timing cover off overnight with an empty tray underneath in a bid to find leaks?

John
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline Steverat

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Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
« Reply #5 on: 20.02. 2019 20:49 »
Hi All
Mysteries of the internet/ the reply I sent earlier has gotten lost in transit  *conf*

Steverat,
Did you drain the sump after the second running to see if oil is accumulating there?
Are the rocker oil feed bolts drilled the correct size? 3/64in.
Already mentioned is a restriction in the return line, and check the oil tank breather is clear
Check to see if there's oil in the offending cylinder,
If both look near enough the same oil wise, remove the offending side exhaust pipe and see if oil is leaking down the guide, Head flooding with oil ???
The last suggestion is the one you don't want to hear ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, a broken piston ring  *eek*

If the return side is working properly it should clear any oil the feed side can deliver,
Unless there is a massive gravity leak on the feed side

Very little oil should leak through the new pump
It might be worth leaving the timing cover off overnight with an empty tray underneath in a bid to find leaks?

John

Thanks guys. Yes the rocker feed bolts have the tiny holes. I'll try these things.

1951 BSA A10 - now returned to Germany
1972 Triumph T100R Daytona
1924 B-S SS80
1965 Triumph SH Cub
1960 AJS M18CS

Online berger

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Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
« Reply #6 on: 21.02. 2019 01:20 »
I have not been to the pub *beer*, Steverat I remember you got some NOS hepolite rings. I have a thing about rings after being stung by the famous SRM with some crappy ones that turned out to be causing my oil burning problems after my rebuild *rant* *rant* *rant* *problem* *pull hair out* *bash* ::hh::. this is when I found out there was so much crap being made that wasn't fit for purpose . I hope this isn't your problem but can you remember if they were all marked TOP etc and came with fitting instructions as I have found with all good rings that haven't created a problem- -- hope you find an easier solution to your problem than I did, soon be pub time *beer*

Offline Steverat

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Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
« Reply #7 on: 21.02. 2019 06:04 »
I have not been to the pub *beer*, Steverat I remember you got some NOS hepolite rings. I have a thing about rings after being stung by the famous SRM with some crappy ones that turned out to be causing my oil burning problems after my rebuild *rant* *rant* *rant* *problem* *pull hair out* *bash* ::hh::. this is when I found out there was so much crap being made that wasn't fit for purpose . I hope this isn't your problem but can you remember if they were all marked TOP etc and came with fitting instructions as I have found with all good rings that haven't created a problem- -- hope you find an easier solution to your problem than I did, soon be pub time *beer*

Keith I hope so too but how will I be able to tell if they are at fault? No there was no top side on the comp rings but they did come in an old Hepolite packet (not a repro one) with the usual instructions.

1951 BSA A10 - now returned to Germany
1972 Triumph T100R Daytona
1924 B-S SS80
1965 Triumph SH Cub
1960 AJS M18CS

Online berger

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Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
« Reply #8 on: 21.02. 2019 15:05 »
well I think the answer to that steve is when you know the oil isn't coming down the valve guides and the pump is doing its job, ie getting bubbles in the return intermittently with oil flow. you could get away with starving the top [rockers] and seeing if there's a difference , mine was so bad from first start up I knew right away I needed to strip it. I put about  20 miles in and then bit the bullet, I marking blued the bores very lightly and pushed the rings through and found them shaped like 50p pieces and they would never have bedded in, that's when I bought the gandinis and pushed them through the bores and got uniform blue pick up ,fitted them and bobs ya uncle --- perfect *smile*

Offline Steverat

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Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
« Reply #9 on: 21.02. 2019 20:30 »
well I think the answer to that steve is when you know the oil isn't coming down the valve guides and the pump is doing its job, ie getting bubbles in the return intermittently with oil flow. you could get away with starving the top [rockers] and seeing if there's a difference , mine was so bad from first start up I knew right away I needed to strip it. I put about  20 miles in and then bit the bullet, I marking blued the bores very lightly and pushed the rings through and found them shaped like 50p pieces and they would never have bedded in, that's when I bought the gandinis and pushed them through the bores and got uniform blue pick up ,fitted them and bobs ya uncle --- perfect *smile*

Dont think it can be that, compression  is very good.

1951 BSA A10 - now returned to Germany
1972 Triumph T100R Daytona
1924 B-S SS80
1965 Triumph SH Cub
1960 AJS M18CS

Offline Steverat

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Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
« Reply #10 on: 21.02. 2019 20:36 »
Hi All
Mysteries of the internet/ the reply I sent earlier has gotten lost in transit  *conf*

Steverat,
Did you drain the sump after the second running to see if oil is accumulating there?
Are the rocker oil feed bolts drilled the correct size? 3/64in.
Already mentioned is a restriction in the return line, and check the oil tank breather is clear
Check to see if there's oil in the offending cylinder,
If both look near enough the same oil wise, remove the offending side exhaust pipe and see if oil is leaking down the guide, Head flooding with oil ???
The last suggestion is the one you don't want to hear ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, a broken piston ring  *eek*

If the return side is working properly it should clear any oil the feed side can deliver,
Unless there is a massive gravity leak on the feed side

Very little oil should leak through the new pump
It might be worth leaving the timing cover off overnight with an empty tray underneath in a bid to find leaks?

John

Timing cover is off now, will leave it overnight - there is a dripping leak  but I dont think it will leak enough to put 400ml through without the motor running.

1951 BSA A10 - now returned to Germany
1972 Triumph T100R Daytona
1924 B-S SS80
1965 Triumph SH Cub
1960 AJS M18CS

Offline Steverat

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Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
« Reply #11 on: 21.02. 2019 20:46 »
summarising, I think it must be a delivery side leak perhaps from the PRV, overwhelming the scavenge which pumps a strong stream back to the tank but without any bubbles in it. I'm leaving it overnight to check the stationary leaks, then run again tomorrow, maybe with my spare PRV. Maybe the PRV spring is tired or the washer too thick?

1951 BSA A10 - now returned to Germany
1972 Triumph T100R Daytona
1924 B-S SS80
1965 Triumph SH Cub
1960 AJS M18CS

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Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
« Reply #12 on: 21.02. 2019 22:29 »
I would have matched the srm pump with the srm relief valve  *beer*

Offline Steverat

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Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
« Reply #13 on: 21.02. 2019 23:06 »
I would have matched the srm pump with the srm relief valve  *beer*
Yes but its not in the budget

1951 BSA A10 - now returned to Germany
1972 Triumph T100R Daytona
1924 B-S SS80
1965 Triumph SH Cub
1960 AJS M18CS

Online chaterlea25

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Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
« Reply #14 on: 21.02. 2019 23:15 »
Hi Steverat,
Quote
I think it must be a delivery side leak perhaps from the PRV, overwhelming the scavenge which pumps a strong stream back to the tank but without any bubbles in it.

As I said earlier this is most unlikely to happen due to the greater capacity of the return side of the pump
The only way its possible is if the combination of the delivery and rocker feed  is greater than the return capacity

When You go back to the bike, drain the sump before you run it again, then when it starts to smoke stop and drain the sump. measure the amount and report back.

You could try removing the rubber connection on the return line and add a temporary flexible tube from the engine return pipe  to the oil tank filler hole bypassing the return oil connection to the tank,
This will remove the restriction at the top of the standpipe (and the rocker feed) to see if this is the cause of a (maybe) problem caused by increased oil flow from the new pump

John
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)