Author Topic: I'm smoking on the right too!  (Read 2276 times)

Offline Steverat

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Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
« Reply #30 on: 23.02. 2019 22:31 »
steve leave the sump plate loose with a good oil catching thingy under it so the oil just runs out put some splash guards round it too ;), if it still smokes you know what's next, if it doesn't something else is going on but I am pretty sure mine drains about 200 ml after stopping the engine even after seeing the bubbles in the return .edit swarfy my sucky tube end just enters the gauze and the tapered bit sits in the gauze hole so maybe 3mm below the gauze if that

Swarfy's post sent me right back out to the workshop...yesss my sucky tube end is bent! Shall gently try to straighten it tomorrow morning, then I'll do Keith's diagnostic and  report back.

1951 BSA A10 - now returned to Germany
1972 Triumph T100R Daytona
1924 B-S SS80
1965 Triumph SH Cub
1960 AJS M18CS

Offline Swarfcut

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Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
« Reply #31 on: 24.02. 2019 10:04 »
Steve, if possible try and brace the tube against the inner crankcase wall, as you bend it down. A wooden wedge against the crank, if there is room. The tube mounting plate will act as a fulcrum, and try and pull the tube out of its location in the case as you bend the tube down.  In an ideal world the valve end should reach almost to the bottom of the sump plate, but for now as long as it enters the hole in the gauze, should be OK.

 Bergs.... The S/A design is different, just a horizontal pipe into the internal oilway back to the pump, here you are stuck with a slightly higher suckky end. The plunger tube is more of a snake.

 Swarfy.

Offline Steverat

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Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
« Reply #32 on: 24.02. 2019 13:50 »
Steve, if possible try and brace the tube against the inner crankcase wall, as you bend it down. A wooden wedge against the crank, if there is room. The tube mounting plate will act as a fulcrum, and try and pull the tube out of its location in the case as you bend the tube down.  In an ideal world the valve end should reach almost to the bottom of the sump plate, but for now as long as it enters the hole in the gauze, should be OK.

 Bergs.... The S/A design is different, just a horizontal pipe into the internal oilway back to the pump, here you are stuck with a slightly higher suckky end. The plunger tube is more of a snake.

 Swarfy.

I managed to bend the pickup (sucky) tube end down with a thick walled tube which I counterbore 7/16” so it just slipped over the end of the pickup. Looks good.

But that’s where the fun stopped. Exhaust still oily so I did Keith’s experiment. No improvement. Okay so now we know it’s oil from the bores. Stripped top end off, bores were full of oil but no oil wetting on the valve stems. Must be the rings/piston? Rings are still in one piece and the pistons show no sign of seizures or heavy bearing. No play in the big ends. What now? Get the engine specialists to inspect in more detail?

1951 BSA A10 - now returned to Germany
1972 Triumph T100R Daytona
1924 B-S SS80
1965 Triumph SH Cub
1960 AJS M18CS

Online berger

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Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
« Reply #33 on: 24.02. 2019 14:18 »
steverat you need to clean up the rings and bores , smear a touch of engineers blue on the rings or in the bores insert rings one at a time and push them through the bores using the piston crown , then carefully inspect to see how the blue ends up marking the bores or rings, not very good at explaining this but when I did mine I could see all the hit and miss places when my crappy rings were doing the same as yours are. very frustrating when you get parts that are dustbin worthy. I did the same with the new rings and could see straight away the difference in marking blue covered area, after fitting the gandinis everything was ok. ps I don't have anything to do with Gandini rings but by ek they are proper.

Online Black Sheep

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Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
« Reply #34 on: 24.02. 2019 15:08 »
A compression test with dry bores vs oily (as in piston crowns covered in oil) bores would give a fair indication of rings sealing or not. Very unscientifically, I would be tempted to try running with the original oil pump in place of the SRM one to see if the problem persists. It is a variable that has changed so perhaps worth a check.
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Online berger

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Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
« Reply #35 on: 24.02. 2019 15:46 »
mine has srm oil pump and with good rings all is ok --- I am sticking at ITS THE RINGS! *beer* *bash* they come  in fancy convincing packages or in my case a plastic bag [from srm] and they are no good. the oil scrapers I had were like 50p pieces and there are lots about *eek* edit I took everything to gags at Nottingham and they agreed I had bought a load of crap , it was at their shop where they let me do the marking blue trick with the gandinis and the difference was amazing -- so they went in the engine and no more oil burn or neat oil on the piston crowns

Offline Swarfcut

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Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
« Reply #36 on: 24.02. 2019 15:55 »
  Steve, what a bummer.  Like bergs says, looks to be the rings, and  oil on the piston crowns is the source of the smoke.

    Can't remember if you have had the barrel bored or just replaced the rings. Either way the final stage is to hone the bore. With a rebore, this knocks off the peaks of what is in effect a fine internal thread. If you just replaced the rings, the bore still needs to be roughed up to remove the surface glaze, otherwise the rings will never seal.

 So, a few things about piston rings. Assuming you have the right rings for the bore, the top ring  has slight variants, and will be either plain, or a barrel profile. These can fit either way up. Some sets have a groove round the top to clear the wear ridge at the top of the worn bore. Another sort you may find is a "tapered periphery ring", where the ring diameter increases  from the top to the bottom of the ring. Here the narrower part goes to the top. Very hard to tell by eye. so these rings will be marked "top"

 Middle ring, can be plane, barrel, tapered periphery as before, or a type with a circular groove round the outside, like a little hook in profile. This is a Napier ring. fitted with the groove to the bottom.

  The side clearance of rings in the piston grooves should be minimal, no more than 1-2 Thou. If the rings slop sideways in the groove, this up and down movement transfers oil  into the combustion chamber. No matter how well the rings seal radially, oil will still get by.  All the rings should be able to be pushed into their grooves below the piston lands, and be free to move in, out, and rotate round in the groove.

 The oil rings are straightforward. Make sure the drain holes  in the ring groove are clear.  If you still have the old set of rings handy, do a comparison how each fits in the bore, checking the ring gap.

 Maybe worth cleaning up the old rings and replacing them as a trial.

 Oddly enough some oil is necessary in the bore. If your carb is currently very rich, you get a situation where almost neat petrol covers the bores. Termed "Bore Wash, or Fuel Wash" long term it is detrimental to the pistons and rings, washing any lubricant off the bores.

 Really thought you had it sussed, and apologies if you are well experienced with pistons and rings.

 Swarfy.

Offline Steverat

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Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
« Reply #37 on: 24.02. 2019 20:24 »
I shall be calling Gaggs and getting some blue tomorrow. Be in touch!

1951 BSA A10 - now returned to Germany
1972 Triumph T100R Daytona
1924 B-S SS80
1965 Triumph SH Cub
1960 AJS M18CS

Offline Slymo

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Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
« Reply #38 on: 24.02. 2019 20:44 »
Following this post with interest having posted the previous RHS Smoking post. Mine still doing the same thing despite sorting the oil pump and replacing the scraper ring on the rhs. There will be a simple explanation I just haven't worked out what it is yet.
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Online berger

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Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
« Reply #39 on: 24.02. 2019 22:22 »
steve gags only repair speedos and rev counters now, they sold all their stuff to Bantam john *pull hair out* and the lord knows what he will charge for bits , I would sauce some blue and see what results you get and if its rings [which I think it is] I would do an internet search for the gandinis----[ Italian made *good3*]- burton bike bits srm etc etc but I wouldn't settle for any other make nowadays there's so much rubbish about that people can't wait to get rid of, bantam john is that busy adding to his millions££££££££ I have ended up taking stuff back , but he is always right when clearly he isn't.... hard work and i'm only 7 miles away, he is my last or never resort, right back to rings I am sure googly will sort some

Offline Swarfcut

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Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
« Reply #40 on: 25.02. 2019 10:36 »
Hi bergs.. All very frustrating for Steve. Just checked his progress from way back in October '18, seems he has new pistons and rings from another brand, if I understand correctly. Presume the barrel was bored to suit, but with so many variables a veritable money pit.

 See you are still on good terms with the local supplier up the big hill (not).

 Swarfy.

Offline Steverat

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Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
« Reply #41 on: 25.02. 2019 12:22 »
Hi bergs.. All very frustrating for Steve. Just checked his progress from way back in October '18, seems he has new pistons and rings from another brand, if I understand correctly. Presume the barrel was bored to suit, but with so many variables a veritable money pit.

 See you are still on good terms with the local supplier up the big hill (not).

 Swarfy.

Chaps,
Yes Burton Bike Bits sold me the new Taiwanese Heoplites plus a NOS pack of old Hepolite rings. They should have been slright shouldn't they? I managed to get some engineers blue this morning and Thornton's are sending me some Gandini rings - so watch out for the next report! Barrel was already bored to +040 but in good nick so I just had it honed slightly by Hurleys who are a local engine reconditioner with a good reputation.

1951 BSA A10 - now returned to Germany
1972 Triumph T100R Daytona
1924 B-S SS80
1965 Triumph SH Cub
1960 AJS M18CS

Offline Swarfcut

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Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
« Reply #42 on: 25.02. 2019 12:45 »
Hi Steve...Getting more mysterious.  Dealing with Thorntons means you are now on terms with THE ARISTOCRACY.  The ring width/piston groove clearance could be the factor here if both are on the wrong side of what's good. There were some figures on the forum a little while ago by Colsbeeza, September 11  2018, comparing grooves and rings.  Its in a thread on piston choice, by coincidence featuring today. But you knew that, you were part of it.  You ain't the only one in the frame for this problem.

 Keep at it.
 Swarfy.

Online berger

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Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
« Reply #43 on: 25.02. 2019 12:56 »
my Gandini rings are in Taiwanese pistons and they are fine *smile*

Offline Steverat

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Re: I'm smoking on the right too!
« Reply #44 on: 25.02. 2019 18:06 »
While waiting for the promised Gandinis, I noticed the piston in the right hand side bore (the smokier of the two) is actually canted over to the nearside. I can easily get a 015 feeler down to the top ring on the offside; no chance on the nearside. Whilst not necessarily the sole problem, a bent conrod is obviously not helpful to piston ring sealing so I'm considering resetting it manually. I have done this successfully on steel conrods before now - it would be great if it works since I could avoid stripping the bottom end. I can set it with a 2 ft. steel bar, turned to fit the little end, and a bit of grunting. I weigh nearly 100kg, should be enough to bend the rod I think.

1951 BSA A10 - now returned to Germany
1972 Triumph T100R Daytona
1924 B-S SS80
1965 Triumph SH Cub
1960 AJS M18CS