I'm smoking on the right too!

[Swarfcut]

Steve   Well done for sticking at it. Now the smoke has gone, time for an appraisal of what was wrong and why.

 Simply a case of rings not sealing, but the reason for failure is something I have never experienced. I have built many engines over the years, mainly with AE or Hepolite pistons and rings, and Kolbenschmidt were another brand I used. I was intrigued how you measured the radial pressure, but more interesting was what was in the Hepolite pack. Do you think they were actually manufactured like that, or the supplier has obtained what he thinks are the correct rings in the pack but is himself a victim of fraud? The other possibility is an extremely worrying scenario. Was it a factory sealed pack?

   The fact that they were not prepared to assist you, but are happy to take your money is probably because they know that the customer is not going to take matters further when things go wrong. But we do have consumer laws if you want to go down that route. Any reputable company will have conditions of sale, and somewhere in there will be a clause concerning faulty goods.....You have bought something that did not work because of a manufacturing or packaging error.

  I  for one would like to know where I should not be making my next purchase when the time comes.

 Swarfy

 

[mikeb]

I spoke to the supplier this morning who is unrepentant

Steve who was the supplier? not asking for slander or anything, just the facts which others can choose how to respond to.

a long time ago i did a marketing paper at uni (sorry, yes, brief flirtation with the devil) where they told us of the 3/33 rule. customers tell 3 people about a happy purchase and 33 about an unhappy one. i wonder if your supplier knows that

[berger]

this crappy parts thing with piston rings and where they were bought is a difficult one. my crap rings came from srm who told me to fit the chrome ring at the top---- WHAT? I didn't know BSA's ever had one. the next conversation was that they would bed in!!!!!!!!! hahaha throwing neat oil into the exhaust pipes. then I went to gaggs and got the gandinis. then phoned srm and ask for my  money back for the crap rings, whilst in this conversation I mentioned the gandinis and told them they didn't come in a clear plastic bag which the srm ones did. as the conversation continued he told me he was looking at the shelf where there was a box of gandinis so I asked why they had sent me non descript crap when they could have sent me good stuff , and that I liked to ride my bike and not trailer it to shows. the outcome was that I sent the rings back , got my money back for them [they were more expensive than the gandinis] and they said they would be taking it up with their supplier . i'm just glad I didn't have to have this problem if I lived at the other parts of this planet like so many do who receive not fit for purpose parts----- RANT OVER

[Steverat]

I spoke to the supplier this morning who is unrepentant

Steve who was the supplier? not asking for slander or anything, just the facts which others can choose how to respond to.

a long time ago i did a marketing paper at uni (sorry, yes, brief flirtation with the devil) where they told us of the 3/33 rule. customers tell 3 people about a happy purchase and 33 about an unhappy one. i wonder if your supplier knows that

Burton Bike Bits.

[Greybeard]

Burton Bike Bits.

I bought some duff rear plunger shrouds from BBB. After a bit of resistance they agreed to take them back. I got a refund of my cost, including postage.

The worst supplier I experienced was Lightning, an expensive mistake to go to them. I'm glad they've gone pop and their business has been taken over by Draganfly.

[Slymo]

Did you mean FW Thornton as I cant find an FH and FW say they can supply rings but not Gandini? I see Hastings Rings all over the place, any feedback on them?

[Steverat]

Away from home at the moment will send details when I’m back on Monday

[worntorn]

this crappy parts thing with piston rings and where they were bought is a difficult one. my crap rings came from srm who told me to fit the chrome ring at the top---- WHAT? I didn't know BSA's ever had one. the next conversation was that they would bed in!!!!!!!!! hahaha throwing neat oil into the exhaust pipes. then I went to gaggs and got the gandinis. then phoned srm and ask for my  money back for the crap rings, whilst in this conversation I mentioned the gandinis and told them they didn't come in a clear plastic bag which the srm ones did. as the conversation continued he told me he was looking at the shelf where there was a box of gandinis so I asked why they had sent me non descript crap when they could have sent me good stuff , and that I liked to ride my bike and not trailer it to shows. the outcome was that I sent the rings back , got my money back for them [they were more expensive than the gandinis] and they said they would be taking it up with their supplier . i'm just glad I didn't have to have this problem if I lived at the other parts of this planet like so many do who receive not fit for purpose parts----- RANT OVER

When I rebuilt the top end on my Rapide 15 years and 55,000 miles ago, the experts told me to throw away the supplied cast iron rings that came with the Omega low
expansion pistons. Instead they suggested fitting expensive Honda Chrome rings. I remember questioning this information, especially when I learned that the Honda rings alone would cost more than the Omega pistons with rings.
Vincents never came with low expansion pistons or Honda Chrome rings.
Original Vincents also consumed an Imperial gallon every 1500 miles when in good condition ( Riders Handbook)
 New to Vincents, I went along with the advice, sceptical as I was.

The low expansion pistons and Honda chrome rings reduced oil consumption to 8 ounces on a 2500 mile trip, in other words no adding of oil between changes.
Amazing!
At 55,000 miles there is no sign of wear in the bore, less than one thou of total taper, excellent leakdown numbers. Cast iron rings would have been dust by now and I believe the bore wear would be greater as well.
I know the chrome rings didn't work for you, but they can work incredibly well.
It may be that there are many different grades of chrome rings.

Glen

[Steverat]

Did you mean FW Thornton as I cant find an FH and FW say they can supply rings but not Gandini? I see Hastings Rings all over the place, any feedback on them?

Yes its FW and they do supply Gandini, here is the proof attached.
Steve

[Steverat]

AFTERMATH

Started up today and ran for much longer, about 5 minutes without smoke and unfortunately without much oil return either - until the breather was overwhelmed. Removed sump plate as per usual and over 900ml of oil dropped out which is a new record for me. So I now know I had two propblems all along, the severity of the oil pumping imbalance is made apparently worse now that the engine can run without filling the bores with oil.

Obviously the answer must be in the pipework downstream in the scavenge system - pickup and associated pipes in sump were well under the oil surface by the time it came flooding out the breather.

[Swarfcut]

Steve.. What an unexpected twist!!!!

 I am racking my brains as all possible reasons have been explored.  Just see if  the problem is cured with the rocker feed disconnected, oil fed to a catch can. This feed circuit is always adding to oil in the sump. I suspect the design capacity of the scavenge is on a bit of a knife edge, too much oil here may be just tipping the balance. Might be as simple as a blocked pipe in the tank, forcing the return oil to feed back to the sump via the rockers. Keep an eye on the tank level, don't run it dry.

  If no improvement, the scavenge side is the easiest to investigate, so this starts with the sump ball valve and ends with the tank. You are looking for obstructions, and leaks which will allow the pump to draw air instead of oil. I would have the pump off and make sure the scavenge pick up is  sealed to the crankcase as described in earlier posts. Whip the pump back plate off, just to see if all is well, scavenge gears correct, no endfloat in the chamber, no leaks on the pump, pump /crankcase gasket sealing OK, and not blocking  or obstructing any oilways. Are the holes in the new pump in precisely the right place  to accurately match your crankcase?

  If you consider there is more oil being delivered than the scavenge can return, this would indicate an oil leak in the delivery side.  See if it is possible to blow easily down the oilway to the anti wet sump valve. Probably need a low pressure airline, to lift the ball but there should be a fair resistance to air flow. No back pressure means a leak somewhere, which you will hear. If this seems OK, worth trying it with the old pump.

 Swarfy.

 

 

[muskrat]

G'day Steve.
Also check the oil pipe adapter gasket and the dowel in position. This could also restrict return.
Cheers

[Steverat]

G'day Steve.
Also check the oil pipe adapter gasket and the dowel in position. This could also restrict return.
Cheers

What dowel Musky? Oh you mean the dowel in the adaptor. That is clear.

[Greybeard]

Steve, if you do take the back off the pump, be careful not to let the gears out. They appear to need to be carefully meshed from new, at least, the BSA ones do.

[chaterlea25]

Hi Steve,
Was the hole in the dump plate gauze in the correct place, ?
If the pickup pipe is obstructed by the gauze it will restrict it
If you place a large tray under the engine
and a jar of oil sitting in it with a transparent tube pushed on over the pickup pipe and into the jar
A brief run of the engine will check if the
Return pump is doing it's job
Previously I suggested bypassing the tank return pipe to remove any  restriction that might be there??

John