Author Topic: re-sleeve T/S bushing  (Read 2397 times)

Offline coater87

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2008
  • Posts: 1181
  • Karma: 6
re-sleeve T/S bushing
« on: 08.08. 2009 19:54 »
 Guys,

 I was working on turning a new T/S bushing, when the thought hit me about re-using the original metal cage- and just turning the sleeve inside. Now I noticed this is pinned to stop it from rotating.

 My questions are, is re-using the metal cage a do-able idea (or a good idea at all), and if so how do you remove the pin from the cage without doing damage to the outer housing?

 Anyone actually ever do this, or know of someone who did?

 Thank you,
Lee
Good Advice
0
No reactions
Central Wisconsin in the U.S.

Online muskrat

  • Global Moderator
  • Wise & Enlightened
  • **
  • Join Date: Jul 2009
  • Posts: 8417
  • Karma: 110
  • Lithgow NSW Oz
    • Shoalhaven Classic Motorcycle Club Inc
Re: re-sleeve T/S bushing
« Reply #1 on: 08.08. 2009 20:29 »
G'day Lee,
              a friend of mine bored the bush out 15thou and coated it with white metal, then reamed it to suit his 2thou under crank. This was 20 years ago and it is still in service.
Cheers.
Good Advice
0
No reactions
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS now A10CR,  '83 CB1100F, 88 FXST .
Australia
Muskys Plunger A7

Online trevinoz

  • Newcastle, N.S.W. Australia.
  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2006
  • Posts: 2913
  • Karma: 67
Re: re-sleeve T/S bushing
« Reply #2 on: 08.08. 2009 22:26 »
Lee, the dowel, or pin, will push out and can be reused.
Trev.
Good Advice
0
No reactions

Offline coater87

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2008
  • Posts: 1181
  • Karma: 6
Re: re-sleeve T/S bushing
« Reply #3 on: 08.08. 2009 23:30 »
 Thanks Trev and Muskrat,

 I am going to give this a try and I will let everyone know the out come. Hopefully it works well as it would save a bit on the bronze and quite a bit on the time needed to turn a full bush.

 Lee
Good Advice
0
No reactions
Central Wisconsin in the U.S.

Offline Josh Cox

  • Valued Contributor
  • ****
  • Join Date: Apr 2009
  • Posts: 275
  • Karma: 0
Re: re-sleeve T/S bushing
« Reply #4 on: 09.08. 2009 04:40 »
Coater,

I have had exactly that just done, took the old bush ( metal outer copper inner ) to a machinist, he machined out the old centre and replaced it with a shiney new piece of PB, make sure you loctite the new inner inplace. (this guy has done lots of these, he reckons the pinning is not required).

Leave plenty of material there so you can later ream to the crank OD after crank grinding.
Good Advice
0
No reactions
Black 1953 Golden Flash Plunger

Offline coater87

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2008
  • Posts: 1181
  • Karma: 6
Re: re-sleeve T/S bushing
« Reply #5 on: 11.08. 2009 14:10 »
 Guys,

 That went pretty well. I had a little trouble removing the old bushing, but the pin popped right out- I just had to find it afterward.

 I turned the insert from LB, I made it 1/2 thousandth oversize. I heated the cage, used a little lock tite, and will reuse the pin. Probably over kill, but this is the first time I have done this and want to be sure its OK. I had my reamer resized, it will never ream 1.5 inches again, but it will ream any size T/S bushing comfortably.

 I still have to drill for the oil and pin, but I left .040 for reaming later. Its a lot and will take some time, but I have no idea how square the bushing will go back into the case. Now I just have to make a guide for the drive side, and ream till my arm falls off.

Lee
Good Advice
0
No reactions
Central Wisconsin in the U.S.

Online orabanda

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2008
  • Posts: 1024
  • Karma: 21
Re: re-sleeve T/S bushing
« Reply #6 on: 11.08. 2009 14:35 »
Hey Coater87,
Good work; well done!
Just a suggestion; don't use that reamer on your bush!
The process will not be accurate enough. I am pretty sure that by the time you have reamed it enough for the crankshaft to rotate freely through 360 degrees, there will be too much clearance between the bush and the journal. Also the surface finish will only be average.

I suggest you (literally) drop the bush in the crankcase half (after heating crankcase in mum's oven to 250 C). Then, find a machinist with a borer, and request that he clocks off the machined bore for outer race for the LH (primary side) bearing.

Then he should machine your bush to give 0.0015" clearance on the timing side journal, and it will be hunky-dory!

Make sure:

He doesn't clock off the crankcase half mating face (the crankcase bearings might not have been machined at 90 degrees to this face)
The timing side crankcase journal has been ground  and linished in a crankcase grinder beforehand.
 Regards,
Richard

Good Advice
0
No reactions

Offline coater87

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2008
  • Posts: 1181
  • Karma: 6
Re: re-sleeve T/S bushing
« Reply #7 on: 11.08. 2009 15:21 »
 Hi Richard,

 I would think that turning a guide bush for the drive side (that fits the reamer), bolting the cases together and then reaming would get me to where I need to go. I have found a complete lack of help from local machine shops, most of these guys are high production and seam unwilling to except one small job like this. I live in a foundry area, and I guess that should be expected.

 I have found in the past that I can greatly increase the finish using an expandable reamer. I make quite a mess, but it works well. To remove the harmonics (which cause the chatter), I first pack the cutting end of the reamer in very thick grease, then I wrap the whole mess with wax paper. The finish will be a mirror of the grind, and if done very slow feed/speed, its a very nice finish.

 And if worse came to worst, I can always remove the bushing, rebuild it and send it off. I would like to give this a try though first. A lot of my own enjoyment with this type of project is doing the maximum amount of the work myself and making things and doing the machining are part that too me.

 Heck, I even feel guilty I had to have the crank ground by someone else- but that type of equipment is beyond my budget, and space. Besides, how many cranks would you have to grind to make it worthwhile! *eek*

 Lee
Good Advice
0
No reactions
Central Wisconsin in the U.S.

Offline A10Boy

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 1075
  • Karma: 11
  • Solihull, Near Birmingham England.
Re: re-sleeve T/S bushing
« Reply #8 on: 12.08. 2009 21:33 »
Theres a chap in the UK who will make a LEAD bronze one piece bush for about £38, I got one and had it fitted at T&L Engineering.

I got his number if anyone wants it.

Andy
Good Advice
0
No reactions
Regards

Andy

1958 Super Rocket
Plus
1974 Kawasaki Z1a
Yam XJR 1300

Offline nigeldtr

  • A's Best Friend
  • ***
  • Join Date: Jun 2009
  • Posts: 195
  • Karma: 0
Re: re-sleeve T/S bushing
« Reply #9 on: 23.09. 2009 20:03 »
Lee,

As I mentioned, I would like to do the same, how did you get on?
Good Advice
0
No reactions
1951 Golden Flash (engine now rebuilt) 1953 M21 a pain to start and 1961 GF that is turning into a black hole!

Offline BSA_54A10

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 2030
  • Karma: 32
    • BSA National
Re: re-sleeve T/S bushing
« Reply #10 on: 24.09. 2009 11:26 »
It is not a difficult job even for the home machinist to do.
Just be careful which material you use for the new lining.
We had a long and exhaustive discussion a while ago about suitable alternatives.
I very, very , very strongly recommend 85,5,5,5 leadded gunmetal.
Phos bronze is way too hard and I regard it as playing Russian Roulette with your journal.
Let the oil pressure drop and it will be toast.
Ditto for Al bronze.

As for making a complete new one piece bush from LC or LB , not a good idea, as neither have sufficient rigidity or strength,
Phos bronze dose have the ncessary strength but as already stated I consider it too " unforgving" to be a realistic alternative the the leadded bronzes or gunmetals
Good Advice
0
No reactions
Bike Beesa
Trevor

Online RichardL

  • Outside Chicago, IL
  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2007
  • Posts: 5141
  • Karma: 49
Re: re-sleeve T/S bushing
« Reply #11 on: 24.09. 2009 13:58 »
Trevor,

A question. If the oil pressure was to drop to the point of no film on the T/S bush, wouldn't the left-side big end have left the building long since?

Richard L.
Good Advice
0
No reactions
Plan on signing up for the world-wide 2020 DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDEon September 27, 2020. This year it's a solo or pillion ride in dapper attire. Watch website at https://www.gentlemansride.com for details.


Offline A10Boy

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 1075
  • Karma: 11
  • Solihull, Near Birmingham England.
Re: re-sleeve T/S bushing
« Reply #12 on: 24.09. 2009 19:25 »
Both probably.

Quote
As for making a complete new one piece bush from LC or LB , not a good idea, as neither have sufficient rigidity or strength

Have you any calculations on this or is this just opinion?

I would imagine the forces at say 120mph, which would be around 8,000 rpm, must be huge?

Good Advice
0
No reactions
Regards

Andy

1958 Super Rocket
Plus
1974 Kawasaki Z1a
Yam XJR 1300

Offline nigeldtr

  • A's Best Friend
  • ***
  • Join Date: Jun 2009
  • Posts: 195
  • Karma: 0
Re: re-sleeve T/S bushing
« Reply #13 on: 24.09. 2009 22:20 »
From what I can remember, it does not take much oil pressure to keep the crankshaft afloat even at high speed and loading. Provided oil gets into the crank, the centrifugal forces while push any oil out to the big ends with a huge pressure so again provided there is oil pressure at the main journal, things will work, perhaps not optimally from a stress and cooling perspective but there will be lubrication. Unless I am mistaken, (please correct me if I am wrong) the killer for white metal is heat and/or direct friction - running dry from cold after standing for 2 weeks etc. I don't have the materials experience but I would tend to a solid one piece Phos/Bronze bush simply because of the above problems. However, I am equally happy to try as recommended. I will probably only ride 2000 miles a year so what every I do should hopefully outlast me *smile*

Nigel
Good Advice
0
No reactions
1951 Golden Flash (engine now rebuilt) 1953 M21 a pain to start and 1961 GF that is turning into a black hole!

Offline A10Boy

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 1075
  • Karma: 11
  • Solihull, Near Birmingham England.
Re: re-sleeve T/S bushing
« Reply #14 on: 24.09. 2009 23:41 »
I just don't like the idea of inserts even if they are glued and screwed. You hear horror stories of them turning and cutting the oil supply.
Good Advice
0
No reactions
Regards

Andy

1958 Super Rocket
Plus
1974 Kawasaki Z1a
Yam XJR 1300