Author Topic: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!  (Read 2654 times)

Online trevinoz

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Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
« Reply #60 on: 27.04. 2020 22:38 »
Excess pressure in the crankcase can come from a head gasket leaking into the pushrod tunnel.

Online chaterlea25

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Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
« Reply #61 on: 28.04. 2020 00:20 »
Hi
Time for a leak down test before pulling the top end part ?
Without going back to the start what type / make rings are fitted ?
A bad bore or cocked piston from a misaligned small end will cause lots of blow by

John
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Offline mugwump

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Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
« Reply #62 on: 28.04. 2020 14:41 »
Just a very brief observation, you mentioned a fibre washer under the forward fixing on the oil pump. You probably meant to say gasket, but just in case ( and I'm sure you are aware ) the forward circular gasket is the same thickness as the main pump gasket.

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Offline bikerboy

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Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
« Reply #63 on: 28.04. 2020 21:43 »
Thanks for all your ideas because I really dont want to strip this engine down if I can avoid it, I will now try to answer those ideas.

One thing I probably did not emphasis is the way the engine runs. It runs wonderfully, it ticks over perfectly and is instantly responsive when blipped. Obviously its running in so I have not revved it to death but a quick blip and its great. I have done about 250 miles on it (and about 25 gallons of oil  ;) and it starts and runs perfectly with no smoking and the plugs are a lovely colour.

Just a very brief observation, you mentioned a fibre washer under the forward fixing on the oil pump. You probably meant to say gasket, but just in case ( and I'm sure you are aware ) the forward circular gasket is the same thickness as the main pump gasket.

Yes its actually a very thin washer which I assume is fibre and it is fitted.

I’ve just read the whole thread and you already observed the return but i still think it worth doing as it will show up any crankcase pressure build up, and also whether too much oil is going to the rockers, on that, the swing arm bikes have a “special” banjo at the oil tank that “bleeds” a small proportion of the return oil to the rockers. RDFella mentioned this a few posts ago. Given the return side only has in the region of 30% more capacity than the flow side its important that the “bleed” to the rockers is considerably less than 30% if the return volumn, for this reason a simple “TEE” to the rockers (as you mentioned early on) may not restrict the flow to the rockers enough, which would lead to a crankcase full of oil some minutes (maybe many minutes) later. Just a thought......

I agree so I removed the Tee piece and refitted the standard plunger rocker feed which has not helped at all.

As you have experience with these motors, I suggest forgetting the rocker feed for a short test, a direct connection to the feed and return plain pipes should do. Start with a drained sump, correct oil volume and see what happens. May save a load of work if the fault is simply the oiltank.

Good idea one I will try when I can but I am fairly sure the oil tank is ok it was my first thought a blocked return but I have cleaned them again quite vigorously.

In my opinion the return side is acquiring additional pressure from the crankcase pressure. Even though the crankcase breather seems to be working I suspect something wrong in this department so that crankcase pressure is pumping through the return side via the pickup pipe or via the gasket at the back of the pump. I would put an extra breather on a tappet cover. If you have a spare timing cover put a breather on that. I would also make absolutely certain the oil pump is seating properly. Sorry if this is repeating what you've already heard. Fundamentally, I think the crankcase pressure is finding its way into the oil return...somehow! The only other possibility I can think of is the oil return hole in the return pipe in the tank blocked or too small for another reason. Where else could such excess pressure be coming from? Good Luck!

Firstly dont worry about repeating anything if it helps I will love you forever :). I had a rocker box breather on which did not seem to leak oil or improve things nor did there seem any pressure coming from it but I do find the idea of the crankcase pressure actually boosting the oil pressure a very sensible train of thought. I will definitely check the seating of the oil pump because that would possibly explain a few things.

Excess pressure in the crankcase can come from a head gasket leaking into the pushrod tunnel.

Now thats a good thought as I had that many years ago on another engine and it actually ended up with the pushrods being bent from the heat. I dont think thats my problem this time as a compression test was fine but the engine was not at running temperature when I did that test. That would also explain why the plugs are still a relatively good colour.

Time for a leak down test before pulling the top end part ?
Without going back to the start what type / make rings are fitted ?
A bad bore or cocked piston from a misaligned small end will cause lots of blow by

Another top idea particularly as I actually have a leakdown tester that I have only ever used once and that was not even on one of my engines.

The pistons and rings are heppolite but they are the old heppolite from many years ago, not the newer ones. I have quite a multitude of spares some of them I have had for 40 years and altho they looked ok and all measured ok thats a damed good shout. The problem is I cannot remember if I put new rings on them or they are original rings. They were obviously measured and gapped etc before fitting and the compression seems good but again those tests were done before it was at full working temperature.

A huge thanks for all your ideas I will investigate all in turn before I rip the engine out and set fire to it :)

It might take a few weeks before I get around to it because I do have other projects on the go but I really do appreciate everybodies input.



Online chaterlea25

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Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
« Reply #64 on: 29.04. 2020 00:13 »
Hi bikerboy,
Just another thought?
Have you shone a light down the plug holes to see if the bores have glazed preventing the rings from bedding in ?

John
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Offline bikerboy

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Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
« Reply #65 on: 29.04. 2020 01:46 »
Have you shone a light down the plug holes to see if the bores have glazed preventing the rings from bedding in ?


Yes I did that when I ran the compression test, I have actually done a lot more than I have posted on here but if I tried to describe every check that I had done then this article would be 5 pages before anybody else commented.

I think the most misleading thing is that the engine runs so damned well. When I first started the bike it fired first kick and started second kick. Even now after not touching it for 3 months (due to pure anger as much as other projects) it started first kick. It sits there ticking over lovely and holds at 55 mph like it could sit there all day, it probably could if I had an oil tanker following me :)

my plan to proceed is as follows:

Disconnect the return pipe and run it to a gallon can or something to take the oil tank out of the equation. Some will say disconnect the rocker feed but I am not happy doing that as its all brand new valves and guides and I dont want one of them to pick up.

When and if that fails, remove the timing cover and check the oil pump is sitting nicely, I might even change it I have a few of them.

When and if that fails, remove the rear rocker box cover and run it without to normal temp to see if the head gasket is blowing into the push rod tunnel, altho my endescope might tell me that with running it there are bound to be signs on the push rods if it is.

If all else fails then make sure its hot and get the leakdown tester on to it, 100 PSI should be enough.

If none of those tests diagnose the problem then its going to be a case of head and barrels of at least which will be a pain but I want to find out exactly whats up.

A very vague memory tells me that the piston rings and barrels were all kept together because I have used them before but I cant swear to that.

I might just buy a new set of pistons for the hell of it anyway.

It has got the big valve alloy head on it which is a right pain to get on and off but this is the price we pay for collecting thse old english bikes.

If all else fails I might set alight to it and go and buy a kawa*****.................................... Ok no!!!!!!!! its not quite driven me that crazy yet :)

Online KiwiGF

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Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
« Reply #66 on: 29.04. 2020 05:09 »
Have you shone a light down the plug holes to see if the bores have glazed preventing the rings from bedding in ?


Yes I did that when I ran the compression test, I have actually done a lot more than I have posted on here but if I tried to describe every check that I had done then this article would be 5 pages before anybody else commented.

I think the most misleading thing is that the engine runs so damned well. When I first started the bike it fired first kick and started second kick. Even now after not touching it for 3 months (due to pure anger as much as other projects) it started first kick. It sits there ticking over lovely and holds at 55 mph like it could sit there all day, it probably could if I had an oil tanker following me :)

my plan to proceed is as follows:

Disconnect the return pipe and run it to a gallon can or something to take the oil tank out of the equation. Some will say disconnect the rocker feed but I am not happy doing that as its all brand new valves and guides and I dont want one of them to pick up.

When and if that fails, remove the timing cover and check the oil pump is sitting nicely, I might even change it I have a few of them.

When and if that fails, remove the rear rocker box cover and run it without to normal temp to see if the head gasket is blowing into the push rod tunnel, altho my endescope might tell me that with running it there are bound to be signs on the push rods if it is.

If all else fails then make sure its hot and get the leakdown tester on to it, 100 PSI should be enough.

If none of those tests diagnose the problem then its going to be a case of head and barrels of at least which will be a pain but I want to find out exactly whats up.

A very vague memory tells me that the piston rings and barrels were all kept together because I have used them before but I cant swear to that.

I might just buy a new set of pistons for the hell of it anyway.

It has got the big valve alloy head on it which is a right pain to get on and off but this is the price we pay for collecting thse old english bikes.

If all else fails I might set alight to it and go and buy a kawa*****.................................... Ok no!!!!!!!! its not quite driven me that crazy yet :)

On my s/a bike its not possible to disconnect the return pipe and not disconnect the rocker feed at the same time? Are plungers plumbed differently to the swing arm bikes? Makes me wonder how the rocker feed is plumbed into the return pipe, can you show how with a photo?

Another test could be to run it without the outer timing cover on so you can see if the oil level builds up in the sump or if the oil pump leaks, I’ve not done this so don’t know how messy it is, maybe someone else can comment?

The rocker feed on my bike is a few drops per second, just a dribble really, as very little oil is needed in the rocker box (and there is considerably less than 35% to “spare” from the return oil supply for the rocker box anyway) Theres also plenty of “oil mist” coming up the barrel so personally I think you would be ok if you only run it without the pressure feed for a few mins, you could take the rocker covers off and squirt some oil in around the guides before doing the test, then replace the covers,  if still concerned.

I could be wrong but i still don’t think pressure in the cases will cause the return oil to be pressurised, so i think you either have one problem (with the oil return) or two unrelated problems (the second being pressure in the cases). I know of an A10 with piston blowby issues that were bad enough to keep popping the drive shaft oil seal out of place, but not, from memory, cause any issues with the oil return to the tank.
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Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
« Reply #67 on: 29.04. 2020 10:38 »
yes but no but maybe , has the pump gasket blown across the oil ways and to the inside of the engine? could be part of the problem as well as wrong breather timer thingy or breather cork disintegrated *eek* does the oil get black quick, I should hope not with new valve gear but these things can bite us, apart from that I have no idea so will shut up! good luck in the investigation, I can't wait to find out what the problem was, -- not is *smile*

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Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
« Reply #68 on: 29.04. 2020 11:00 »
G'day bb, what a mess (pun intended).
I agree with KiwiGF and can't see how crankcase pressure can affect return oil pressure.
The sump filling to the extent of blowing out the breather means the return side of the pump isn't keeping up with the feed side or something is stopping it (blockage).
Just a random thought as I don't have any literature anymore. I think the A50/65 pump spins the opposite way to the A7/10. If this is so, could you have a later worm drive. I know it would be hard to reverse the hoses on a plunger but not impossible.
Clutching at straws is hard with oily hands.
Cheers
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Offline JulianS

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Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
« Reply #69 on: 29.04. 2020 12:18 »
Had a similar distressing problem with the A10 a few years back.

A 20 mile run to work would result in most of the oil tank content ending up on the road through the breather. Changed oil pipes, blew out oil ways, stripped and check the pump. All the usual. Put it back together and no improvement. Repeated the process still no improvement.

In desperation checked the return pipe in the oil tank and found it obstructed and allowing only part of the return oil to get back to the tank. Had to open the top of the pipe and push obstruction out. It looked like bits of wire wool. How did it get there?? Sealed top of pipe. refilled tank problem solved.


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Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
« Reply #70 on: 29.04. 2020 12:23 »
G'day bb, what a mess (pun intended).
I agree with KiwiGF and can't see how crankcase pressure can affect return oil pressure.
The sump filling to the extent of blowing out the breather means the return side of the pump isn't keeping up with the feed side or something is stopping it (blockage).
Just a random thought as I don't have any literature anymore. I think the A50/65 pump spins the opposite way to the A7/10. If this is so, could you have a later worm drive. I know it would be hard to reverse the hoses on a plunger but not impossible.
Clutching at straws is hard with oily hands.
Cheers

The a65 pump does turn the opposite way, which is why you have to fit an A10 drive/ worm section to the A65 body to get the resultant bastardised pump to fit an A10, its a good mod tho (i have done it). To fit a complete a65 pump to an A10 one would have to put the “reverse” worm on the crank, which would take some doing! But stranger things have happened I guess.

Reversing the oil pipes to “correct” an A65 pump working in an A10 in reverse would not work, as the return/scavenge side would still have less capacity than the pump side?  *dunno* makes my head hurt.



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Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
« Reply #71 on: 29.04. 2020 14:24 »

Reversing the oil pipes to “correct” an A65 pump working in an A10 in reverse would not work, as the return/scavenge side would still have less capacity than the pump side?  *dunno* makes my head hurt.
G'day Kiwi.
That's what seems to be happening.
JulianS could be on a winner.
Cheers
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Offline JulianS

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Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
« Reply #72 on: 29.04. 2020 15:07 »
The A65 pump rotates the same direction as the A10. The a65 worm drives the pump gears furthest from the crankcase/pump joint, the A10 worm drives the gears nearest the joint. The A65 worm and worm gear on the crank have an opposite cut to the A10 so the pump rotates in the same direction as the A10, as required by the oilways in the crankcase, which are basically the same form both models. If it had the same cut the pump would rotate in the opposite direction.

The A65 pump nose is longer than the A10 and the worm is longer so you cannot fit the A65 worm into the A10 nose.

Offline bikerboy

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Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
« Reply #73 on: 29.04. 2020 16:14 »
On my s/a bike its not possible to disconnect the return pipe and not disconnect the rocker feed at the same time?

Dont have a pic but its a steel tube in the return line with a take off but all I would do is disconnect the rocker pipe at the rubber joint and stick a bolt in it to stop feed to the rockers so its easily done. The connection is just before the return pipe fits to the tank so on a plunger its easy to do, I know what you mean for the swinging arm model as the take off is actually off the tube coming out of the oil tank.

does the oil get black quick

It does not appear to

I think the A50/65 pump spins the opposite way to the A7/10. If this is so, could you have a later worm drive. I know it would be hard to reverse the hoses on a plunger but not impossible

The A65 worm gear ann the A10 pump would never marry together or visa versa as the worm drive runs in the opposite direction. I know that for sure cos I have my A65 engine half built :)
It would be a stunning feat to cross the oil lines over and if I did it would not be returning at all nor would it be getting any oil down to the engine cos the level would need to be above the return stick in the tank

In desperation checked the return pipe in the oil tank and found it obstructed and allowing only part of the return oil to get back to the tank. Had to open the top of the pipe and push obstruction out. It looked like bits of wire wool. How did it get there?? Sealed top of pipe. refilled tank problem solved.

I have pushed brazing rods down the return pipe in the tank and blown it out with about 150 PSI because that was my first suspicion so I am 100% sure there is no blockage in the tank or the lines but I do aim to hook the return pipe up to a separate container to take that possibility totally out of the equation.

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Re: Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!
« Reply #74 on: 29.04. 2020 20:52 »
G'day JulianS & bb.
Thanks for putting my "random thought" to bed. I learn something every day.
Cheers
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