Brake relining

[RogerSB]

Hi all,
I'm waiting for a GP Manx sidecar to be delivered from Watsonian any day now and in preparation, as I have a spare set of front 8" brake shoes I thought I'd send them off and get them relined with some good quality linings. I see Villiers Services do them for £21.95 a pair using a woven non asbestos material and I've had a quote from Saftek for £36.00 using 3915 heavy grade material, both prices inclusive of vat & return post. (Edit): The spare shoes mentioned are cast with W1088 & 9, so are triumph shoes but size are exactly the same and are 1/2" for pivot.

Has anybody had any knowledge / experience with either lining service or the lining material?

Currently using SLE riveted shoes, which I've found to be fine, never had any moments with them, so I'm thinking of sticking with that, but I also have a new set of Taiwan made floating shoes I bought from feked and I've been wondering whether I should get them relined instead. Any advice/comments appreciated.
Thanks.

[Rocket Racer]

If planning to reline the floating shoes note the lining pattern is offset to prevent the self servo effect locking them up.
Both options should work to some extent, the big issue you will have is that the shoes being narrow have a lot of work to do stopping a chair.
Is the sidecar wheel braked? With the SLS FWH '60 type brakes I'd suggest you really need it to be.

My personal opinion is those brakes are marginal at best on modern roads on a solo. So my opinion would be to fit a late 60's flanged hub so you can fit wider shoes and ideally a TLS brake to safely pull up an outfit in traffic.
You don't want to end up using the engine as a brake as that is a rod killer.

Appreciate that brake is the original, I just (again personally) don't rate that hub, The half width A65 brake also has a wider shoe but again in SLS form is mediocre for a rig.  Please post a picture of the rig when attached. 

[JulianS]

Looking at the photo the imported shoe does not look as substantial as the original.

[RogerSB]

I know a lot of owners don't rate the FWH front brake but I've not found mine too bad 'considering' and I live in a very hilly area and most of the time I’m two up.  Maybe down to the linings I’ve got or brake drum geometry, etc. I’m thinking that if I need to improve the braking, with sidecar attached, I would first try some new high quality linings.

The chair I'm getting is a single seater and only weighs 85 kg (see photo). It doesn't have a brake fitted at the moment but Watsonian do a kit to fit, so it’s an option.

I had a sidecar on an A10 G/F some years ago, got on fine with it and really enjoyed it.  Didn't change a thing on my A10, apart from screwing down the steering damper, I kept the solo gearing and standard fork springs. It was a Canterbury double adult, so a big chair and I kept it for just over a year before going solo again when I needed to travel long distances at weekends (sold it to a motorcycle shop for £10.00).

Your right Julian, I bought those a couple of years ago but I didn’t have any confidence that they would be any better than what I already had, so they were put to one side.

[Swarfcut]

Roger, Just wondering how they got it into the front room.  If you are going to have those untried shoes relined, maybe a comparative test before sending them away, if you can be bothered. It would be interesting to see if they are any good or have linings made of cardboard.

Swarfy.

[RogerSB]

 Hi Swarfy, It was in the corner of Watsonian Squire's showroom. I went there to look it over.

As for the unused shoes, I'm sure it would be a waste of time to even try them. To get them relined - maybe. I bought them some time ago, before I got to know what sub standard replacements are often sold to us these days.

[Greybeard]

Hi Swarfy, It was in the corner of Watsonian Squire's showroom.

A group of us visited them during this years BSA International rally. May have looked at your new sidecar.

[RogerSB]

Hi Swarfy, It was in the corner of Watsonian Squire's showroom.

A group of us visited them during this years BSA International rally. May have looked at your new sidecar.

It's not new Neil, that's probably why it was in the corner  but you may well have seen it there.  Watsonian are fitting different lights for it to be more in keeping with my 'non indicator' bike, it comes with a tonneau cover and a collapsible hood.

[RoyC]

Hi Swarfy, It was in the corner of Watsonian Squire's showroom.

A group of us visited them during this years BSA International rally. May have looked at your new sidecar.

It's not new Neil, that's probably why it was in the corner  but you may well have seen it there.  Watsonian are fitting different lights for it to be more in keeping with my 'non indicator' bike, it comes with a tonneau cover and a collapsible hood.

When are you expecting to have it Roger ?

I am in the process of adapting a rear number plate to a rear light for my chair. It's in primer at the moment and being painted next week.

[RogerSB]

Hi Roy, I'm expecting it to be delivered any time now as it's 4 weeks overdue. Ben said 3 weeks to deliver - it's 7 weeks since I paid a deposit.  To be fair they've had some work to do on it.  If you look at the bottom front of the mudguard in the photo you can see a scratch so they're going to fit a complete new mudguard - no extra cost (that was Ben's idea).  As the mudguard had to be made from scratch I asked him if he could fit non-indicator lights in place of the indicator ones and he said he'd get their laminator to re-shape the rear of the mudguard to suit the different rear light (they use a GRP laminator company in Cheltenham to make their bodies etc).  When I spoke to him a couple of weeks ago (on a Wednesday) he said they were expecting the new mudguard by the end of that week. So that would have been exactly 1 weeks ago today. Then they have to fit it and arrange delivery to Plymouth, so I'm happy to give them time. In the meantime I've wired up a waterproof Superseal connector for the sidecar lights, amended insurance etc.

[Nourish]

I had some shoes relined by Friction Services - Bristol  - charged me less than 1/2 that but I did pick them up. They had some really old reference books for dimensions etc. They are classic vehicle fans.

[RogerSB]

Removed my A10s brake shoes yesterday to send them away tomorrow for relining.  I was surprised not to see more wear. They were on my A10 when I purchased it 3 years ago, in that time I've removed the drums twice to check and dust them out when the opportunity has arisen while doing other jobs.

The rear ones 42-5876 because of the colour staining look like the ones Dragonfly sell for £35.34 + pp.  The fronts are Triumph part numbers.

(Edit): Mileage 31,940,   ha,ha, that's total mileage (I've done 1,498 in the 3 years).

[RogerSB]

Just an update if anyone is interested.

Posted my old brake shoes by 1st Class Royal Mail to Saftek Frictions Ltd. on Mon (21st), phone call from them on Wed (23rd) to say ready (then you pay them), they posted that day and relined shoes were delivered today (24th).  How's that for excellent service.  Total cost for 4 shoes inc postage £54.00.

Photo of them below and a close up of lining material. The guy I spoke to told me the lining they use today is basically the old type of Ferodo material which had asbestos in it but now without the asbestos - so safe to use.

The shoes have come back stained brown/orange, so  it makes me think that this is (maybe) where Dragonfly send their shoes away for relining because their exchange relined shoes have the same staining.

[RDfella]

"The guy I spoke to told me the lining they use today is basically the old type of Ferodo material which had asbestos in it but now without the asbestos" Sales pitch. Looks nothing like the old material.
Those environmentalist do-gooders have a lot to answer for. Yes, prolonged exposure to certin types of asbestos is not healthy, but unless you were blowing out brake drums with an airline on a daily basis, a non-problem. Meanwhile the real problem of virtually non-existent brakes doesn't bother them.
And at £50, leaving £4 for postage, the vendors must be making a 300% profit. No wonder we buy from India and China. Seems UK businesses still haven't learnt why the Japanese sunk the UK motorcycle industry.

[JulianS]

There were, of course, a number of different original Ferodo materials available for motorbike use, but I have not seen much information about which original material is equivalent to which new one.

The exception being non asbestos MZ Gold material, if it is still available, which is claimed to be a replacement for the original MZ41 material, which was a woven material with included zinc wire with anti fade properties.

It would be interesting to know the name and charactaristics of any of the modern replacement materials.