Author Topic: Anti-sumping switch  (Read 781 times)

Offline RogerSB

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Anti-sumping switch
« on: 23.08. 2020 11:44 »
Here's a contentious one to get you all going  *smile*  or maybe not  *sad2*.

When I bought my A10 some years ago it had been fitted with one of the Bri-Tie valves in the oil supply pipe. I removed it very quickly, not wanting to trust a spring and ball, and like a lot of us I have lived with my A10 wet sumping. I just make sure I run it enough, summer and winter, for it not to get too much, and require draining the sump (even though fitted with SRMs magnetic version).

I've been toying with this (see drawing) - Any thoughts?  Even for / maybe any long forced periods of A10 engine inactivity in the winter.

Cheers,
Roger.

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Online chaterlea25

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Re: Anti-sumping switch
« Reply #1 on: 23.08. 2020 15:41 »
Hi Roger,
I fitted one to a friend's A10 earlier this year, I got it from kingpin components.
The magnetos guys sell the same switch
Both seem to be out of stock currently?
To fit on the A10 I had to use the top solid part of an oil pipe to bring the tap to a position where it is easy to get at above the clutch arm,
Then a 90 degree elbow and connect back onto the original 90 fitting that went onto the tank
I did not take pictures unfortunately

John

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Offline RogerSB

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Re: Anti-sumping switch
« Reply #2 on: 23.08. 2020 18:48 »
Hi John, thanks for that tip. I haven't got any of the bits to try for a fit but I was hoping there would be room by using a swivelling elbow direct from the oil tank. Maybe I'll have to come up with a plan B in case I can't do that.

If I do decide to fit one I'll get a supply pipe made up to fit from Flexihose here in Plymouth. They made up a two part oil return pipe for me when I fitted a filter (see pic).

I saw the switch in one of Kingpin's eBay listings and messaged him to ask a question and also asked about stock, as I noticed they were all out of stock on The Magneto Guys website. I received this message back:-

'Hi Roger, Yes - They are back in stock and ready to be sent out. The Magneto Guys website hasn't been updated yet but you can buy one here or through the Kingpin website.

Best Regards
Andy
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Offline Triton Thrasher

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Re: Anti-sumping switch
« Reply #3 on: 23.08. 2020 19:29 »
Can only wish you the best of  luck.
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Online Black Sheep

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Re: Anti-sumping switch
« Reply #4 on: 23.08. 2020 19:50 »
My Norton wet sumps (they all do that sir) so if it's going to be left for a while I just drain the tank and refill before the next ride. Seems simplest.
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Offline RogerSB

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Re: Anti-sumping switch
« Reply #5 on: 23.08. 2020 21:14 »
I haven't decided one way or the other, just looking into it.

If it's a simple open - shut gate valve inside it should be safe enough. If the switch doesn't get moved right off the brass crescent to the fully open position you can't start the engine because a spring loaded metal ball let into the underside of the switch arm shorts out the magneto on the crescent, so it could also be used as a cut out switch. It must be turned to fully open, otherwise the ball doesn't get moved right off the crescent so you can't start the engine with it slightly open, it must be fully open.

The only problem I can visualise is that if the switch arm moves (with vibration when riding and touches the brass crescent it'll cut the engine.
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Online bsa-bill

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Re: Anti-sumping switch
« Reply #6 on: 23.08. 2020 22:27 »
Quote
The only problem

It's a personal choice of course and many have done it one way or another, my choice is not to fit one, you just have to forget to turn it on ONCE to destroy your engine, with age and a failing memory that's a big price to pay for the very occasional wet sump, start your engine a couple of times a week instead
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All the best - Bill
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Re: Anti-sumping switch
« Reply #7 on: 23.08. 2020 23:43 »
Hi Bill,
The engine will not start until the tap is fully open, it is connected to the magneto cut out
Once the cutout is working all should be good, the recommendation is to cut the engine with the tap switch every so often to check operation

John

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Offline Triton Thrasher

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Re: Anti-sumping switch
« Reply #8 on: 24.08. 2020 06:32 »
Hi Bill,
The engine will not start until the tap is fully open, it is connected to the magneto cut out

Safety interlocks work perfectly until the day you need them.
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Re: Anti-sumping switch
« Reply #9 on: 24.08. 2020 08:17 »
The old quote " Add lightness and simplicate". All for simplification. Just got a Land Rover back from repairs to discover it widdling oil. Turns out the newly fitted oil pressure gauge union hadn't been tightened. The gauge is of course just an added complication and potential point of failure.
Had the A10 sieze because on oil line on the aftermarket cartridge oil filter came adrift. That should have taught me to keep things simple.   
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Offline RogerSB

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Re: Anti-sumping switch
« Reply #10 on: 25.08. 2020 13:38 »
By the comments most are not interested but for any that are here's some more info from Kingpin Components:-

Hi Roger

It's a ball valve for the oil flow which gives a huge bore once open to make sure oil flow isn't limited.

The tap handle would have to move several degrees before it cut the engine. I have these fitted to a couple of my bikes and have never known them to move, and have sold hundreds with no reports coming back that it has been a problem. They are very stiff when new and free off a bit once they've been used - but are still not likely to move by accident. The other advantage of this design is that the engine will not run until the oil is almost all the way on. So no chance of running the bike with a restricted flow.

Let me know if I can help with anything else
Andy
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Offline lawnmowerman

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Re: Anti-sumping switch
« Reply #11 on: 25.08. 2020 18:39 »
Hi Roger

I had a look at the Kingpin valve when it was first introduced on their stand at Ardingley. It looks well made (3D printed) but my first observation was that there was no earth terminal and the "kill" earth relied on the copper oil pipe - which may be OK if you have braided or armoured pipes or absolutely useless if you have rubber sections. Also bear in mind that the A10 oil tank is rubber mounted.
I mentioned this to Andy and I have noticed that later versions have a grub screw through the body to allow an earth feed wire to be clamped between the body and the metal part of the switch. This did not look a very robust connection to me so I did not buy one.
I bought a switch from Andrew Dove who makes them mainly for AMC bikes but he will fit whatever size pipe unions you want. To be fair, it does look a bit crude - it is basically a 15mm ball valve (gas) and the handle is filed down to a cam shape which operates what looks like a car interior light switch which is plumbed onto the valve with a copious amount of solder. It is quite large and would be easier to fit on an AMC than a BSA.
I have yet to find a switch to fit on my A10 and at the moment I have a 15mm gas valve on the oil feed fitted horizontally above the gearbox. Not pretty but not easy to forget it being there.
The final mod is a 4" piece of white plastic waste pipe with "oil tap" written on it which fits over the kickstart pedal.
When a get a round tuit I would like to do the A65 mod and reverse the anti wet sump ball and spring behind the oil pump but that will have to wait until I need to strip the engine (probably after I forget to turn the oil on).  *pull hair out*

Jim
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Re: Anti-sumping switch
« Reply #12 on: 26.08. 2020 11:30 »
The Andrew Dove ones are indeed bulky, about 52mm from hex to hex excluding the spigots. The switch arrangement is also quite chunky. There is an element of crudeness, certainly, but they do what they're designed to do.  Versions with a relay incorporated are also available I believe for coil ignition machines, where the switch has to work on the power supply side. For AMCs originally, yes.
I acquired the one in the pic as a potential fit to my A, but after replacing the ball and spring in the crankcase, it hasn't wet-sumped so I left things alone.
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Bill

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Re: Anti-sumping switch
« Reply #13 on: 26.08. 2020 12:06 »
After recent news I'm loath to say anything, but...

I would rather deal with a wet sump than a buggered engine. Even a tiny risk of starving the oil supply far outweighs the inconvenience of a sump full of oil.
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Re: Anti-sumping switch
« Reply #14 on: 26.08. 2020 14:34 »
I don't disagree one jot or tittle Neil!!

Ideally, give me neither problem - and I count myself lucky to be in that happy position with my untapped A.
The 'per-A65' ball & spring reversal is probably a very good idea  . . . . but for now the original design works OK on mine, after replacement on the one occasion in over 13 years and a good few miles that the engine has been (fully) apart. Perversely, with the SRM sump plate and plug, my A is by far the easiest machine I own to drain out in a hurry - yet I never have to.

But  . . . my Nortons and my AMC twins suffer badly despite best efforts, and it really can be a pain to have to drain them out after not very long left standing. Apart from anything else, the AMC alloy crankcase bungs aren't the best design ever seen in the history of motorcycles - damaged threads aren't rare sadly due to their being at an angle, and they are a bit tight to get onto with a decent socket. The Nortons' mega-sized after-market plugs (for which you need a lorry-sized set of weapons) at least have small central drain bolts to spare the crankcase threads  . . .  Small mercies always welcome!
 
A buggered engine isn't an inevitable consequence - but like all folk with oil taps, I certainly acknowledge the risk (and regularly check the pesky cut-outs on the mags, flimsy darn things which can and sometimes do go AWOL.)

So to Roger's original Q I'd say yup, it's contentious and views are entrenched,  but 'On our heads be it and may we Be Very Aware!)
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Bill