Author Topic: A10 valve timing. More detail  (Read 822 times)

Offline Ewen

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A10 valve timing. More detail
« on: 13.09. 2021 01:15 »
Hi guys. You can't get rid of me. Thought I'd start a new thread. I have made a new woodruff key and got the crank pinion on no problem. I have cycled the engine a couple of times and the valve timing looks right. (Just checking in case the key on the cam pinion broke too... highly unlikely I think)
Can anyone give me some detail about precise valve opening and closing points in relation to piston position?

1957 Goldflash
1977 Bonneville
2005 BMW GS1200
Suzuki GN125

Offline Ewen

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Re: A10 valve timing. More detail
« Reply #1 on: 13.09. 2021 01:29 »
I have just seen the data sheet that Brian posted for Gerry. Thanks for that. That helps but valve opening in relation to piston height would be easier.

1957 Goldflash
1977 Bonneville
2005 BMW GS1200
Suzuki GN125

Online terryg

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Re: A10 valve timing. More detail
« Reply #2 on: 13.09. 2021 12:26 »
What material did you use for the Woodruff key Ewen?
Terry
'57 'SR', '59 SR, '63 RGS

Offline Ewen

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Re: A10 valve timing. More detail
« Reply #3 on: 06.10. 2021 08:40 »
Hi Terryg. I have just read your post. I use a woodruff key that a friend gave me. I guess it was a blank.... it was exactly the right thickness. I left the rounded edge and carefully ground down the flat edge until it was correct. I was surprised how soft it was.... these keys are obviously designed to break as a kind of safety valve to avoid more serious damage.

1957 Goldflash
1977 Bonneville
2005 BMW GS1200
Suzuki GN125

Offline Ewen

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Re: A10 valve timing. More detail
« Reply #4 on: 06.10. 2021 08:53 »
The rounded edge was the same radius as my broken key.

1957 Goldflash
1977 Bonneville
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Suzuki GN125

Online muskrat

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Re: A10 valve timing. More detail
« Reply #5 on: 06.10. 2021 10:43 »
I was surprised how soft it was.... these keys are obviously designed to break as a kind of safety valve to avoid more serious damage.
G'day Ewen.
Sort of *ex* but I would call bent pushrods/valves and or holed pistons sort of serious if a key shears.
The keys are for precise alignment of the components. If one or the other shears the timing between the valves and piston position goes out the window. Not good if the valve is fully open when the piston is at tdc!
Cheers
ps. to calc piston height at crank degrees fill in the form. http://www.torqsoft.net/piston-position.html You will need to know your cam #'s
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS racer now a A10CR, '78 XT500, '83 CB1100F, 88 HD FXST, 2000 CBR929RR ex Honda Australia Superbike .
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Online bsa-bill

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Re: A10 valve timing. More detail
« Reply #6 on: 06.10. 2021 10:58 »
Quote
these keys are obviously designed to break as a kind of safety valve to avoid more serious damage.

You beat me to it Muskrat
Yes the correct key is vital, how do I know - well from experience, when I was a young lad, we moved to a farm where I had to travel a good deal further than I had the need to previous on my pushbike, my father took me into Berwick where we went into a motorcycle shop, we came out after dad had bought a NSU Quickly (despite a Triumph Cub lying enticingly up against the shop wall - damn), anyway the Quickly was better than a pushbike but had a habit of breaking the key on the crankshaft, after about six of these breaking Dad decided to cure it once and for all and cut the end off a file handle (to get the round) filed it to shape and then heated it to cherry red and quenched it in oil, the key held but the crank snapped!!!! so a key can be too soft or too hard - get the right one
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Online groily

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Re: A10 valve timing. More detail
« Reply #7 on: 06.10. 2021 12:01 »
This may be bad, but when in need of keys, I start with a high tensile bolt. (Not a bit of any old mild steel stock.)
Slice, dice, grind/file. Has not let me down as an approach yet . . .
I don't think of them as a safety valve though, have to say - as Musky says  catastrophe may not be far off!
Bill

Offline Ewen

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Re: A10 valve timing. More detail
« Reply #8 on: 06.10. 2021 19:23 »
Thanks..... I get the point. The item I used was a Woodruff so I should be okay. Unless one is supposed to temper (case harden) the thing after shaping. I didn't think of that.

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Re: A10 valve timing. More detail
« Reply #9 on: 06.10. 2021 20:20 »
G'day Ewen.
What cam do you have?
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS racer now a A10CR, '78 XT500, '83 CB1100F, 88 HD FXST, 2000 CBR929RR ex Honda Australia Superbike .
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Online trevinoz

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Re: A10 valve timing. More detail
« Reply #10 on: 06.10. 2021 22:20 »
Woodruff keys are not hard and are easily filed. I buy them from a bearing supplier and file to dimensions for use in generator shafts, also some magnetos, e.g. Magdyno.
Key steel sections are available and are the same, easily filed to shape.

Offline Ewen

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Re: A10 valve timing. More detail
« Reply #11 on: 07.10. 2021 02:22 »
Not sure what cam I have.... almost certainly just the standard GF one. Those tables will be very useful for the future.... thanks for that Muskrat. Good to hear Trevinoz that keys are quite soft.... I think I'm okay.

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Offline Swarfcut

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Re: A10 valve timing. More detail
« Reply #12 on: 07.10. 2021 09:23 »
 Like Musky says, the key is for alignment, and in the grand scheme of things cannot be considered as the means of power transmission. That's the job of the friction on a taper or the clamping force of a fixing as in the case of the crank pinion oil pump drive  or camshaft nut.

  The hardness of the key ( in my opinion) can be softer than the machined components and will limit damage to these parts in the case of a disaster.
  Sheared keys are more a sign of poorly fitting parts or the inadequate tightening of the fixing.

 As kids we had a Hercules Grey Wolf Moped as a field bike. We clubbed together and punted the 15 bob the local shady dealer was asking. It was a poor runner, with the usual problems of intermittent sparks.  The magneto points were behind the forward facing flywheel, and it took Dad's expertise  (Puller and a big hammer to smack the puller ) to get if off the taper.  We kids reassembled it, started it up and after a few minutes running sheared the key.
 
 Dad came to the rescue, pushed us aside and made a key from the bottom corner of the garden spade. Then with a tubular jack handle on the end of the puny spanner, showed the nut, flywheel and taper who was boss. Lesson learnt. Tapers need to be tight. Gearbox mainshaft taper is a case in point on S/A Models. Here the key slot is often found to be damaged, the key has been taking the drive, not the taper. That clutch centre nut needs to be gut busting tight to avoid trouble and care take to ensure the nut is pulling the shaft and centre together and not just bottoming out.

  Dad had been an aircraft engine fitter, area of expertise Rolls Royce Merlin engines on Spitfires and Sunderland Flying Boats......The Hercules had no chance.  That bike was followed by a James 98 with girder forks. Scrap man had that. Oh! the foolish errors of youth.

 Swarfy.