Author Topic: Another starter build  (Read 710 times)

Offline RDfella

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Another starter build
« on: 07.08. 2022 15:14 »
Here we go on another starter project - not that the bike is hard to start, just that it's not recommended kick-starting bikes after a hip replacement. This time it's my 800cc 50* vee twin fitted in a '49 M21 frame. I've usually referred to is as GB50V but have morphed it to M21V2 on this forum.
Anyway, made a start a week or so ago sketching what might work and decided to drive the crank via a cogged belt, being as there's no room in the (tin) primary case for starter gears etc.
Yesterday and today been creating the first part, the pulley to fit the crank. Bit of a struggle, as the spacer between engine sprocket and pulley has to be fairly thin - the OD small enough not to foul the primary chain, but the ID big enough for the cush drive spring to fit inside. The spacer is bolted to the sprocket with M5 allen bolts, but welded to the pulley. The latter is where the hassle lies - needing a good arc penetration without destroying too much of the teeth (adding to the compromises was limitation of pulley OD to compliment the outer primary case). Obviously had to remove the belt guide for welding, then opened it out to fit over the spacer and silver-soldered it back in place.
Unfortunately a similar situation as the spacer / pulley hassle will occur with the gear on the sprag clutch. The gear is not wide enough and will need a collar added, again welding right next to gear teeth. Of course, a more elegant solution would be to machine the required teeth onto steel bar, but I don't have stock of appropriate material in large enough diameter, and shudder to think how much a special order of 4" dia EN36 or similar would cost (probably a minimum order of 1 meter). Furthermore, I don't have the cutters required. Yes, MOD 1.5 involute cutters are available at very reasonable price, but not sure about a cutter for the pulley. Might end up having to fly-cut it, and the usual problem with that is that the cutter gets tired before you reach the end. More grief I don't need, hence doing the way I chose.

'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '62 Flash special, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

Offline Brandis

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Re: Another starter build
« Reply #1 on: 07.08. 2022 15:49 »
Brave man.  I chickened out and did the easy thing on my M20.  I built a replica military sidecar and hid a Toyota Hilux starter under the sidecar seat.  Keep me posted on progress, because I hip, socket and half the femur made of metal.
47 A7

Offline KiwiGF

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Re: Another starter build
« Reply #2 on: 07.08. 2022 22:37 »
When I did my B31 belt drive conversion I did wonder if there was potential to add a starter....either by an extra pulley which could also act as a tensioner, or a sprocket or pulley bolted to the engine pulley.

I was also wondering if I could stick an alternator on the pulley, or maybe a sensor for electronic ignition, or even a self generating ignition.

So many ideas but not enough time or skill in my case! (No pun intended).

I did disguise the belt drive quite well though  *whistle* most don’t realise it’s there.





New Zealand

1956 A10 Golden Flash  (1st finished project)
1949 B31 rigid “400cc”  (2nd finished project)
1968 B44 Victor Special (3rd finished project)
2001 GL1800 Goldwing, well, the wife likes it
2009 KTM 990 Adventure, cos it’s 100% nuts

Offline RDfella

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Re: Another starter build
« Reply #3 on: 10.08. 2022 20:06 »
Quote
Unfortunately a similar situation as the spacer / pulley hassle will occur with the gear on the sprag clutch.
Yup - did that today. The (standard) gear bought to drive the sprag is too narrow, so a collar had to be welded on to make up the width. As noted above, the collar OD is actually larger than the root of the gear teeth; makes for interesting welding.
Final job was cutting a keyway in the gear for the sprag. Normally I'd have done that on my mate George's slotter, but as he's no longer with us it's down to using a broach. I have them, but it means every job needs a new bush to locate the appropriate broach. Made that, keyway cut and gear teeth cleaned up with a needle file. Took me all day, but it's another part ready.
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '62 Flash special, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

Offline RDfella

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Re: Another starter build
« Reply #4 on: 28.08. 2022 18:14 »
I originally posted this in 'what have you done today ...' because the forum locked me out trying to find the original post. I'm repeating it here just to keep the thread going.

A pic of the gears so far. Just waiting on alloy to arrive so I can start on the case.
Starter drives the gear middle, front row, which drives gear middle top row, which drives idler bottom left, which drives sprag top left , which drives pulley to crankshaft via driveshaft centre left.
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '62 Flash special, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

Offline RDfella

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Re: Another starter build
« Reply #5 on: 24.09. 2022 19:22 »
Update:

Have today completed the starter gearbox casing and jig-bored the holes for bearings & spindles. Casing was fabricated from 6mm alloy sheet with 8mm sheet for the rear (given that's where it mounts and therefore takes most strain). The casing mounts directly on the LHF engine mounting plate, using longer bolts to replace existing engine mtg bolts (remember that although this is a '49 M21 frame, this is not a standard engine. The starter assy should fit a standard M21 / B31 / 33 but clearly there would be some mods required).
In the pic showing gears assembled in the case, the starter comes in at bottom LH corner and output shaft is at RHS. The big gear there encloses the sprag clutch. Had to include an idler gear (second from right) to get correct rotation but also there was no obvious alternative to achieve meshing of gears with preferred reduction ratio.
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '62 Flash special, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

Offline RDfella

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Re: Another starter build
« Reply #6 on: 10.10. 2022 12:51 »
Bit more progress. Seems kinda slow, but at least I haven't suffered the 'how the hell am I going to resolve this' issues that there were with previous starter constructions (especially the first one!).
This weekend I finished off the drive belt cover that'd I'd made a rough 'n ready mould for. Normally I'd make a plug (solid version of the required article, finished to a high standard) followed by a mould of the plug - then lay up the item required in the mould. Clearly that's a fair bit of work and only warranted when the article needed is either relatively complicated and / or a finished product is required from the mould. By 'finished product' I mean ready to use with gel-coat finish. Clearly this cover didn't fall into those categories. Also, I needed to do a little fitting to the bike anyway.
The white item in the pic is the cover for the dynamo belt - this time sheet metal currently in primer.
 
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '62 Flash special, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

Offline RDfella

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Re: Another starter build
« Reply #7 on: 12.10. 2022 18:25 »
A bit more - now assembled on bike (with belt covers off). Starter belt pulley is lacking its outer flange whilst I'm waiting on some button-head allen screws to arrive (flange has to be detachable in order to get the belt on). The dynamo is driven behind the gear case by an extension of the sprag shaft.
Just need to get a battery and wire up a starter button and she's ready to go.
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '62 Flash special, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

Online Greybeard

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Re: Another starter build
« Reply #8 on: 12.10. 2022 19:59 »
Beautiful work 👍
Greybeard (Neil)
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A Distinguished Gentleman Riding his 1955 Plunger Golden Flash

Offline RDfella

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Re: Another starter build
« Reply #9 on: 26.10. 2022 17:40 »
Here's a short video of the finished product.     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hi4JAdBiTF4

Left the cover for the belt drive off to better show it working. Was fortunate there was sufficient space behind the starter gearbox to re-establish the belt drive for the dynamo - it runs c. 3/2 x engine speed, so the original 6v unit starts charging the 12v battery just above a fast tick-over. Starting the engine from cold takes up to two seconds (used to start around 4th kick when kickstarting) but as the mag is manual advance / retard obviously the spark (especially for the front cylinder) is sub-optimal at start-up. Once it's run for a few seconds, start-up is as on the video. Saves risking my new hip!


'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '62 Flash special, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

Online Bsareg

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Re: Another starter build
« Reply #10 on: 26.10. 2022 17:45 »
Brilliant!! Must say that spins a lot faster than the Pearson on my Dbd. Proper job.👍
Helston, Cornwall C11,B40,B44 Victor,A10,RGS,M21,Rocket3,REBSA

Online groily

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Re: Another starter build
« Reply #11 on: 26.10. 2022 18:14 »
Congrats RD - that looks as well as it works. Really nice job! You get this week's gold star (note: lower case!)
Bill

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Re: Another starter build
« Reply #12 on: 26.10. 2022 18:37 »
Fan-Dabi-Dozi!
Greybeard (Neil)
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A Distinguished Gentleman Riding his 1955 Plunger Golden Flash