Author Topic: Anti-wet sumping valves  (Read 7764 times)

Richard

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Re: Anti-wet sumping valves
« Reply #15 on: 20.12. 2009 15:48 »
Well its god that we should agree that we will have different opinions on this, however my engine wet sumps whe I have not ridden it for a couple of weeks which is why I fitted the valve, having rebuilt my engine before I really knew about reseating the ball bearing in the inner crankcase and knowing my oil pump is not worn out, strange as to why all the blame on wetsumping is put down to the pump,I did not wish to strip it down again.
My engine has not been started for a few weeks so from what you are saying the oil will now be drained away and when I start her up to go to the Tappits inn run on Boxing day my engine will have no oil flow and I wil blow her up, wrong every time I have started her up after a layoff I check for oil return and it is there, so somewhere along this thread we have to look at all the facts and not just conclude the valve is the enemy, maybe the pump fitted on the engines that have failed with a valve fitted may in fact be the culprit and the oil starvation would have happened anyway how many of you have had an oil related problem on a bike with no valve fitted several I'll be bound.
Richard

Offline rocket man

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Re: Anti-wet sumping valves
« Reply #16 on: 20.12. 2009 15:56 »
bill your spot on its alright as a stop gap but not as a permanent solution
i would never trust one and maybe over a period of time it could wear parts out a lot quicker
if there is not enough oil to prime it on start up because the valve needs suction that first few seconds
when there is no oil in the line below the valve because its drained off and the pump needs to be full of oil
to pump will be causing damage over a period of time


dave

Offline rocket man

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Re: Anti-wet sumping valves
« Reply #17 on: 20.12. 2009 16:07 »
i found this on a norton web site (This is NOT the dangerous type of anti-drain valve, which is fitted by some people into the oil feed line above the crankcases. Anti-drain valves fitted into oil feeds, always cause oil starvation to the big ends for a brief time when starting the bike. If you use an on/off tap instead and forget to turn it on, you will destroy your engine in short order) i rest my case this is the web site http://www.ntnoa.org/wetsumping.htm

dave

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Re: Anti-wet sumping valves
« Reply #18 on: 20.12. 2009 16:23 »
The strange thing I found with wetsumping is that it did not happen every time the bike was stopped for a long period.
Led me to thinking in terms of could the position of the engine once it stopped have some bearing but I can't workout how this could be unless the pump drained out more in one position than others, another of my theories would involve oil backing up in the pushrod tunnel and draining out after the engine had stopped.
Far fetched ideas I know.
And to introduce a little bit of Irish - we only know we have wetsumping because we have dry sumps, we therefore have an advantage over wetsump desinq in that we know when we have a problem.

I'm off now -  due a pill     oh Toon 2 boro 0   *clap*

All the best - Bill
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Richard

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Re: Anti-wet sumping valves
« Reply #19 on: 20.12. 2009 19:11 »
Rocket man
You must remember that we all have our opinions about different things and because George wrote that on the Norton web site is no different from your or my writings on this web site.
This subject always makes for a good debate and I am sure it will raise its ugly little head again.
Its been good
all the best
Richard with the valve on his Super  Rocket

Offline a101960

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Re: Anti-wet sumping valves
« Reply #20 on: 20.12. 2009 19:44 »
I am not convinced that the pump being in good condition is a reliable way of preventing wet sumping. My engine has done about 2000 miles since a complete rebuild which included a new pump and after about two to three weeks of non use the sump will need draining. At two weeks it is normally OK but after that it will need draining. There are several issues that will affect the time that it takes to wet sump like for instance temperature and oil viscosity. I once managed to pump a load of oil out onto the garage floor by neglecting to the check the sump level, but the bike had not been used for several weeks and I have only myself to blame. I am of the opinion that without anti drain valve wet sumping is inevitable, but I am not persuaded that they are free from risk so therefore I have not fitted one. I know of several people who like Richard have fitted an anti drain valve and have had no problems, in fact I know of one chap that has had one fitted to a Norton Dominator for years. Personally, I do not find it to much of a problem to drain the sump however I always throw the drained oil away and refill with new oil. There are those that say the original A10 timing side main bearing is a weak and should be replaced by something like the SRM conversion for reliability and there are people that have done thousands of miles without trouble. I have always wondered why the SRM warranty is invalidated if you fit a filter (Yes really) and do not use monograde oil. We all set up and run our bikes to suit ourselves and different people are motivated by different experiences. It is a question of individual choice in the end.

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Re: Anti-wet sumping valves
« Reply #21 on: 20.12. 2009 20:29 »
If the check valve on the delivery side of the oil pump is ineffective oil will always gravitate to the sump no matter how good or new the pump is for the simple reason that gear pumps must have clearance around the gears.
Also, if the housings do not seal to each other, oil will leak from the body. There is no shaft seal on these pumps so there is another path for leakage.
The obvious solution is to start the bikes regularly. A drain plug in the sump is a good idea.
If I let my bike stand for too long and get a sump full, I just start it and let the oil pump do its job and clean up the mess from under the bike. I wish I had fitted a breather pipe and hose so I could collect the blown out oil easily.
As a point of interest, my Atlas suffers the same problem but with the high capacity pump and large breather hose connected to the oil tank the sump is cleared in no time. With no oil on the ground.
Trev.

Offline rocket man

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Re: Anti-wet sumping valves
« Reply #22 on: 20.12. 2009 20:44 »
hi trev you will have to be careful starting it with a sump full of oil it could hydraulically lock up


dave

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Re: Anti-wet sumping valves
« Reply #23 on: 20.12. 2009 21:32 »
I don't believe there is enough oil in the tank to fill the crankcase such that there would be hydraulic lockup.

Richard L.
Plan on signing up for the world-wide 2017 DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDE on September 30, 2018. Watch website at https://www.gentlemansride.com for details.

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Re: Anti-wet sumping valves
« Reply #24 on: 21.12. 2009 08:51 »
To this arguement I always reffer owners to their local library.
Go and find one that keeps bound copies of old motorcycle magazines.
Have a look at the "help" colums.
You will find no one asking about a cure for "wet sumping".
It just did not happen as the bikes were new ( so most of the clearences were close ) , the oils were thicker when cold than modern multigrades and THE BIKES WERE DAILY RIDES, so everyhting was being used as it was designed to be.

Ditto for "stiction" in carb slides.
Ditto for mechanical regulators.
Ditto for breather valves,,,,

Get the drift ?

There are 2 principal problems.
1) we are using our A 10's in a mannar that they were not designed to be used.
2) We are judging them by 2010 standards and not 40's to 60's standards.

By far it is better to get one of the bolt on sumps with a magnetic drain plug.
Not only will it make life a lot easier for you cases but as it makes oil changing a lot easier it will also ebcourage more frequent oil changes and the one thing that there is no dissention about on this forum is that you can not change the oil too much.
Bike Beesa
Trevor

Offline MG

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Re: Anti-wet sumping valves
« Reply #25 on: 21.12. 2009 12:00 »
I made the experience that putting the pistons on or near TDC really helps a lot, like stated on that Norton site.. It takes at least twice as much time for the oil to drain down. I guess the hydrostatic pressure from the oil in the big ends helps to reduce seeping through the pump and maybe helps the ball valve to close properly, but I'm just guessing here. Whatever the reason, it does help with both my bikes. I always wondered why it sometimes took more than a month for the oil to drain down, and sometimes just 2 weeks, so I tried different positions and watched the wet-sumping progressing.

BSA_54A10, I totally agree with you. It is just a matter of regular use. With my bikes, it is sufficient to ride them once a month, and the drain plug can stay untouched.
 
Imho after all it's these little imperfections that make the charme of owning and maintaining an old vehicle. I mean, (almost) anyone can get on a new japanese bike, press the start button and take off, but where's the "get-your-hands-dirty fun"?  *smile*

Cheers!
1955 A7 Shooting Star
1956 A10 Golden Flash
1961 Matchless G12 CSR

www.histo-tech.at - Restoration, Repairs, Racing

Austria

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Re: Anti-wet sumping valves
« Reply #26 on: 21.12. 2009 12:30 »
Think you hit the mark Trevor, I never considered wet sumping a problem, it smokes for a couple of hundered yards then clears and runs fine.
I'd love to ride the bike more and should do next year, it's probably those of us that don't get to ride as much as we'd like that spend too much time faffing about looking for faults to mend, I never did that when riding in the sixties, just jumped on kicked and left for the pub, Saturday mornings it got washed and polished and oil checked and that was it.
The only problems I ever had then were punctures and the dynamo chain and once and once only it wetsumped this after it had stood for about four weeks during harvest.

Interesting observation MG, kind of explains why sometimes it wet sumps and sometimes not.

All the best - Bill
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

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Re: Anti-wet sumping valves
« Reply #27 on: 21.12. 2009 16:55 »
Like MG, I try to leave the engine at near tdc and it does make a difference - but first time I've seen a plausible explanation. Use has to be the best answer. I made but then didn't fit a tap as it didn't seem worth it after all, but the after-market sump plug has been great the once or twice the oil's been lower than I'd like in the tank. Occasionally there's a squirt or two from the breather after start-up, but it's not a big hassle on a workhorse bike. It would irritate the heck out of me on a shinier cleaner one though, as it's hard to clean up down there. If I'd wanted to be a nurse . . .
But not apologising for using taps on one or two other bikes with notorious records on the incontinence front. So far Alzheimers has held off - and the ignition cut-outs haven't been tested. Not a topic I ever mention to the local bloke with the stunningly immaculate Commando and the un-wired tap that he forgot . . .
Bill

Offline rocket man

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Re: Anti-wet sumping valves
« Reply #28 on: 21.12. 2009 18:46 »
lets put this to bed now i mean lets finish this topic
we can all do what we want with our bikes fit a valve
or not we all know they wet sump because we dont use them every day like they used to be used
we just enjoy them now and again and its nice to have a bit of history to look after and we all enjoy tinkering
with them its part of the pleasure but i wouldn't fit a valve   *smile* this is my other bike i ride when i dont use the old girl

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Re: Anti-wet sumping valves
« Reply #29 on: 21.12. 2009 22:58 »
I made the experience that putting the pistons on or near TDC really helps a lot,

Have you not heard the theory that leaving an engine stopped long term near TDC is bad for the magneto?