Author Topic: Belt primary - to oil or not to oil?  (Read 4574 times)

Offline alanp

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Belt primary - to oil or not to oil?
« on: 10.06. 2010 16:18 »
My Goldie has a Bob Newby belt drive primary which runs dry. The Newby clutch's bearing is greased with high melting point grease and the clutch friction plates are solid Ferodo type material. This runs well BUT on my RGS rep I want to run without oil in the primary casing and also use a clutch with a shock absorber centre and Tony Hayward's belt drive kit uses the later 3 spring clutch with rubber shock pads, so this would seem ideal. However, has anyone run this clutch, which has steel backed friction plates with multi friction pads, without oil in the primary casing? If so, how did things turn out?
Thanks chaps.
Alan
p.s. Steve McFarlane's electric start system for belt drive primaries is designed around Tony Hayward's kit, so this kit would be future proof for electric start conversion.
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Online bsa-bill

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Re: Belt primary - to oil or not to oil?
« Reply #1 on: 10.06. 2010 18:32 »
Don't fancy a primary chain without oil alan, My mate tried this after being told it was ok to treat like rear chain, it wasn't the chain got red hot.
Primary chain runs faster than rear chain and has no ventilation unless you want to drill holes
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Offline alanp

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Re: Belt primary - to oil or not to oil?
« Reply #2 on: 10.06. 2010 19:04 »
Bill, sorry I didn't phrase my question very well. it's Tony Hayward's complete belt drive kit not chain that I want to run without oil. Agree with you if it was chain.
Alan
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Online bsa-bill

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Re: Belt primary - to oil or not to oil?
« Reply #3 on: 10.06. 2010 20:15 »
Oh OK Alan, I would think that would be most desirable, not many belts like to work with oil.
Bearings might be an issue but they are never in use other than when using the clutch, so the kind of traffic you ride in would be a deciding factor
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Offline MikeN

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Re: Belt primary - to oil or not to oil?
« Reply #4 on: 10.06. 2010 22:21 »
Ive been running a Tony hayward belt drive kit on  my "A" for the last 5 years.Prior to that I had one on my Triumph T110 for about 8 yrs. In both cases I Ran them dry.
Its a quality item.
Advantages are ; a) Obviously you get no oil leaks b) no clatter from that area of the bike c) once set you never have to adjust it d) because of the grippy friction plates supplied i find that ,if used with a nylon clutch cable and some of those nice alloy Amal handlebar levers (which have slightly closer pivot centres than the original pressed steel levers) you end up with a clutch that can be operated easily with 2 fingers. I experimented with moving the pivot centres even closer on the handlebar lever which made operation even easier until the lever broke one day because i had removed too much metal.
  Tonys uses "Generation 3" belts, Whatever that means (it sounds a bit Star Trek to me) and will run happily in oil if required.
 for the grease in the bearing i asked at my local bearing suppliers and they supplied me with a cartridge of sticky blue high temp bearing grease that is supposed to resist being flung off. off course as already stated the bearing is only in use when the lever is pulled in ,I am always aware of this and never sit stationary with the engine running with it in gear.get into neutral as soon as possible and you will never have any trouble. Its good motorcyling practice whatever set-up you are using.
  if you ring Mister Hayward up he will happily talk about his product (for hours,you have been warned). Oh, and ask him what the best method of payment is ,you may be pleasantly surprised.
  Also, you may be interested to know that he make and supplies the dynamo belt drive kits for SRM (or he did when i bought mine) and so you can buy them from him without the mark-up that SRM put on them.
  if using a nylon clutch cable I was advised (by the manufaturers )never to use oil or WD40. use "Duck oil" or apparently the cablw ill get gummed up and become difficult tp operate
Mike

Offline alanp

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Re: Belt primary - to oil or not to oil?
« Reply #5 on: 11.06. 2010 08:40 »
Cheers Mike, the cheque to Tony will be in the post today.
I'm going for a 30T engine pulley and a 55T clutch pulley which is slightly higher geared than my 23T engine/43T clutch sprockets currently fitted, actually equivalent to about a 23 1/2T engine sprocket (2% up) which should slightly reduce the buzzzz at 70mph.
Alan
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Offline MikeN

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Re: Belt primary - to oil or not to oil?
« Reply #6 on: 11.06. 2010 15:06 »
Alan,
I forgot to mention. I use the nice SRM crankshaft nut that they sell ( i might have had to modify it a bit on a lathe,i cant remember now). I also made up a long lever type tool that I bandsawed from a bit of 1/4" alloy plate about 450mm long .I unscrewed the belt retaining flange from the crankshaft pulley and screwed my lever on in its place. By pulling on this lever and the ring spanner that fits the SRM nut and making a sort of grrrnnnfff noise i was able to do it up extremely tight with no risk of anything slipping or getting damaged.I used Loctite thread locker for the nut.
 Did you speak to Tony on the phone? how many hours did it take to get away?
MN

Online RichardL

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Re: Belt primary - to oil or not to oil?
« Reply #7 on: 11.06. 2010 16:21 »
Mike,

I don't know if you've been there, but there is a Tech Topic here called "Home-Made Tools". http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php/topic,368.0.html

If you get a chance, maybe you could post a picture of your home-made lever and how it works. I'd love to see it, and I think others would, as well.

Richard L.
Plan on signing up for the world-wide 2020 DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDEon September 27, 2020 (if it's not cancelled and we are free to move about by then). Watch website at https://www.gentlemansride.com for details.

Offline alanp

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Re: Belt primary - to oil or not to oil?
« Reply #8 on: 12.06. 2010 08:24 »
Yes, I spoke to Tony on the phone. He sounds like a real enthusiast who loves his business/our hobby.
Alan.
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Offline MikeN

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Re: Belt primary - to oil or not to oil?
« Reply #9 on: 12.06. 2010 18:20 »
Here is a pic of the tool i made for tightening up the crankshaft nut. I remove the screwed-on flange from the pulley and bolt on the lever/tool .The small puller is for removing my dynamo pulley. the larger puller is for extracting the crankshaft pulley.
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4681/001za.jpg
Mike

Offline alanp

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Re: Belt primary - to oil or not to oil?
« Reply #10 on: 07.07. 2010 13:25 »
Mike, ref your pulley locking tool, this implies that you fitted the engine pulley with the flange facing outwards. I haven't fitted mine yet but wondered if there's a correct way round for the pulley since mine seems to line up better with the clutch with the pulley flange facing inwards. It's a 30T pulley which Tony says is normally for an A65 so maybe its different from yours. Photos attached.
Alan
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Offline MikeN

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Re: Belt primary - to oil or not to oil?
« Reply #11 on: 07.07. 2010 14:35 »
Alan,
 yes the flange goes outboard to stop the belt flying off. The lever tool I made picks up on the 4 flange retaining screws. When i first fitted it i tried it on the stand with the cover off. I found that when I ran the engine without the flange fitted the belt would stay on but would work its way off when revs were increased.
  To be on the safe side I also turned up and fittted a second flange from 1.5mm thick steel to go on the inside as I didnt fancy it wearing out on the crank case if it decided to start tracking inwards.
  I cant remember now if it was on the BSA or the Triumph ,but i had to make a spacer for the pulley on one to obtain spot on alignment.
Mike

Offline alanp

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Re: Belt primary - to oil or not to oil?
« Reply #12 on: 07.07. 2010 16:43 »
Thanks Mike. I can imagine now that drive belt torque would very slightly tilt the clutch towards the engine due to bearing clearance in the clutch centre bearing, causing the belt to tend to move outwards. My Goldie with a Newby belt drive has flanges on both sides.
I've attached some Blue Tack to the flanges to check clearance with the inside of the casing and it seems to clear by about a mm or so.
I need to get some spacers made up, one inside and one between the pulley and the outer nut, to locate it now. Just wish I had a lathe in my garage to make them without having to get them made locally. I've ordered an SRM 'nut thingy' to clamp it all up and will wait to see what sizes I need when that arrives. Thanks again.
Alan
PS A number of times I've nearly bought a lathe but keep thinking that whatever the current resto is, will be my last one .....but it never is.
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Offline MikeN

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Re: Belt primary - to oil or not to oil?
« Reply #13 on: 07.07. 2010 20:12 »
Alan,
Yes you are right about it tipping or deflecting slightly when the load comes on. On my p/unit Triumph it had 2 gbox tensioners. One on each side so i could cant  it very slightly to compensate. As you know the BSA has only one .
  You mention buying a lathe.The trouble with that is (well it was for me).No matter how big a machine you buy.The first job you want to do will be too big !
MN

Offline alanp

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Re: Belt primary - to oil or not to oil?
« Reply #14 on: 10.07. 2010 14:39 »
Mike, I'm in trouble with the 30T engine pulley on my Hayward belt drive. When I assemble it with the flange outwards as recommended, I find that the belt slowly drifts inwards towards the inner casing away from the flange. The alignment of the engine pulley and clutch faces is good, so the out of line amount to cause this must be very small. I've tried adjusting the belt tension up and down and with the top and bottom gearbox bolts loose/medium/tight, infact as many combinations my patience would allow to set the belt tension but when I run the engine it always drifts inwards. I even tried running the engine in gear with the back brake on to load up the belt and it still drifts inwards.
I have 2 options :-
1) Turn the pulley around with the flange inwards but due to the pulley hub being off centre in the pulley, this would mean the pulley is further out and places the belt towards the outer edge of the clutch, which I'm not comfortable with. I tried this as an experiment and it seems ok as far as belt tracking is concerned.To solve this I could have the pulley hub machined to get it to lie further back but this reduces the spline length engagement.
2) Have another flange made for the inside edge.
At the moment I'm having the extra flange made.
Is this the reason why you fitted an extra flange on the inside of yours?
Alan
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