Author Topic: Dynoing a dinosaur  (Read 4084 times)

Online orabanda

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Dynoing a dinosaur
« on: 19.08. 2010 06:50 »
Hi All,
My RGS replica (62 Super Rocket), is still cooling down, after it's first time on the dyno.

It will have a second (and final) run in a couple of weeks time, after I get some leaner throttle slides from Hitchcocks.





So, how did it go?



About 6 hp better than an iron head GF so far, and I reckon there will be a little bit more, when the correct (leaner) slide is installed.

It started with the standard #3 slide (and a K & N element in the air cleaner, but the mixture was way too rich. The leanest slide I had was a 3 1/2, which improved (leaned) the mid range. However, it needs to be at least a 4 (maybe 4 1/2).

The needle is cutrrently at its lowest (leanest) position, but we expect to raise it a notch or two once the slide is changed.

Main jet is perfect (spot on mixture) at 420.

Needle jet is best at 106.

Started timing at 34 BTDC. (At 35 or greater the engine with ping).

This gave 26 HP (rear wheel).

the best timing setting is 32 btdc. Power goes up to 28 HP, torque increases by 10 ft lb, and is a 3,000 rpm instead of 3,200 rpm when timing was more advanced.

retarded timing to 30 BTDC, but HP dropped to 26, and max torque drcreased.

Engine no longer pings, and pulls like a choir boy!

Will post final curve after next run (when slides arrive).

Richard
The Kalgoorlie Kid

Joke:

A man asked a wise old American Indian chief "What is your wife?s name?"

He replied, ?She called Four Horse?.

The man said, ?That?s an unusual name for your wife. What does it mean??

The Old Indian answered, ?It old Indian Name. It means ?




? NAG, NAG, NAG, NAG!"





Online Brian

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Re: Dynoing a dinosaur
« Reply #1 on: 19.08. 2010 08:00 »
Interesting stuff Richard, whats in the engine of this one, cam/compression etc ?

Online orabanda

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Re: Dynoing a dinosaur
« Reply #2 on: 19.08. 2010 08:25 »
Brian
Big valve head
8.5:1 comp
357 cam
389 carb
standard K2F, RH pot 2 degrees advanced on LH pot - one day I will grind cam ring & make them zero variance
Inlet = 0.0080 clearance
Ex = 0.010"
K & N air cleaner element
Suzuki clutch
SRM pushrods (steel)
My own oil filter system
'66 Lightning front brake (Yippee - it stops!!)

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn82/orabanda/RGSClutch2-2.jpg

Offline A10Boy

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Re: Dynoing a dinosaur
« Reply #3 on: 19.08. 2010 11:09 »
What were you getting from an iron head GF?
Regards

Andy

1958 Super Rocket
Plus
1974 Kawasaki Z1a
Yam XJR 1300

Online orabanda

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Re: Dynoing a dinosaur
« Reply #4 on: 19.08. 2010 11:44 »
A10boy,
This is Mario's A10 (see my thread re Sunday's ride to menzies):


This is the test results:



7.25: pistons
356 cam
Monobloc
Inlet = 0.010"
Ex = 0.016"
Compression = 143 psi LH, 146 psi RH
Best timing setting = 30 degrees BTDC

This is my '54 flash





7.25: pistons
356 cam
276 carb
Inlet = 0.010"
Ex = 0.016"
Compression = 145 psi LH, 145 psi RH
Best timing setting = 30 - 30.5 degrees BTDC. No variance between pots (I did a good job of grinding cam ring).

Richard

Offline alanp

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Re: Dynoing a dinosaur
« Reply #5 on: 19.08. 2010 12:06 »
Great stuff Richard. Can you let us have some info on that delicious looking clutch? Clearly it's been adapted somehow to fit on a BSA gearbox mainshaft taper.
Are the friction plates constructed with friction pads on steel plates or are they full friction material like Bob Newby's clutch used on his belt drives? I can't quite make it out on the photo although the clutch basket looks like aluminium. Is it?
Cheers
Alan
Member of the 'Last of the Summer Wine Club - Jennycliff'.

Online orabanda

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Re: Dynoing a dinosaur
« Reply #6 on: 19.08. 2010 12:27 »
Clutch is a modified Suzuki GS550, using alloy sprocket, and standard Suzook plates.

This is the modified Suzuki PE400 clutch I am putting on my latest project; 1960 SR - should be running in a few weeks

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn82/orabanda/P1030037.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn82/orabanda/A10beltdrive2PE400.jpg

Richard

Offline anita

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Re: Dynoing a dinosaur
« Reply #7 on: 19.08. 2010 20:21 »
Dyno testing was free at the Farmyard Party this year.  Bob considered briefly letting them have a go with his B31 but decided he'd rather ride home on it in one piece. 1946 rigid construction.  So its been very interesting to read this when 'real' bikes have been tested, thank you.
1951 BSA A10 plunger
1967 BSA C15
2004 Enfield Classic Bullet 500CC

Online trevinoz

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Re: Dynoing a dinosaur
« Reply #8 on: 19.08. 2010 22:09 »
Richard,
             Have you tried opening the valve clearances to .010" & .012"?
Eddie Dow recommended these clearances for max HP in his tuning tips.
It would be interesting to see if it is true.
He also mentioned increased noise.
Trev.

Online orabanda

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Re: Dynoing a dinosaur
« Reply #9 on: 19.08. 2010 23:53 »
Trev,
Good suggestion!
I will do that when the RGS replica goes back on the dyno.
I could always do with a bit more of that delicious noise!
Richard

Offline A10Boy

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Re: Dynoing a dinosaur
« Reply #10 on: 20.08. 2010 09:37 »
It's very interesting to note that an iron head GF is best timed at 30 / 30.5 degrees BTDC when using the following set up.

Quote
7.25: pistons
356 cam
Monobloc
Inlet = 0.010"
Ex = 0.016"

I set mine from the book, which was [from memory] 33 degrees BTDC and it runs very sweet. I am now wondering whether I should try it at 30.5 to see what happens. Maybe I should leave well alone.  *conf*
Regards

Andy

1958 Super Rocket
Plus
1974 Kawasaki Z1a
Yam XJR 1300

Online orabanda

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Re: Dynoing a dinosaur
« Reply #11 on: 20.08. 2010 09:53 »
andy,
My experiences are that 33 degrees is OK, but not the absolute best for the alloy head engine.

Bear in mind that I am using a strobe light; I am finding that there is sometimes variance of up to 2 degrees of the timing, when setting by feeler gauge, and then checking with strobe; operator error & technique must be the reason.

Now I set with feeler gauge for initial start-up, then use the strobe for final setting.

regards,
richard

Online Brian

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Re: Dynoing a dinosaur
« Reply #12 on: 21.08. 2010 08:49 »
Got a couple of questions Richard, firstly I know 50% less than bugger all about dyno's so.......

How do you know what the mixture is doing at a particular throttle opening or rev range, do you have a exhaust gas analyzer up its pipe?

I believe that the dyno has a brake or rolling resistance effect to simulate wind resistance or drag as would be expeienced if the bike was actually on the road, does this brake effect increase as the revs increase ? if the bike was actually on the road the wind resistance would be greater at higher revs as you would be travelling faster. Also does the weight of the bike and rider factor into the brake calculation ?

Have you ever done a dyno comparison between twin pipes and a siamese system ?

I'll shut up now and leave you alone  *eek*

Online orabanda

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Re: Dynoing a dinosaur
« Reply #13 on: 21.08. 2010 09:22 »
Hi Brian,
You are correct; there is a gas analyser shoved up the pipe(s). Remember my previous threads about three of the A10's having induction bias?

It stands out like a nun at a nudists convention, when you can measure the mixture out of each pot.

The dyno is always measuring this info, and the screen shot Ray tunes off, plots air / fuel mixture ratio, against HP.

It is the 6th column from the left ("Power Petrol"). The ideal ratio for carburated engine is 12 -12.5. and 13:1 for fuel injected engines (leaner).


After the first run, he can see how close the metering stages of the carby is (Ie air mixture screw, pilot jet, needle and throttle slide, and main jet.

Therefore, he will often make two changes after the first run; ie needle AND main jet.

Here is the first run from my RGS replica:

Note how rich it was (Power Petrol) at 10:1, all the way up to the main jet, which is OK at mid 11's.

He does the run in third gear.

Keep an eye on the torque figures (4th column on left), and their relationship to RPM.



Customer   Richard Argus   
1CN383   BSA   RGS Replica   1962
Ramp-rate: 090   Tacho ratio: 58.0:3000   Graph: 1CN383.0001   19-08-10 / 11:46:28

Dynamometer Correction Information   
                  
Ambient Temp.    17.0  degC   Humidity   43.0 %   Press.    1022.00 mbar   
Inlet Air Temp.   15.4  degC   Corr. used   ATMC2   0.950   Extra corr   1.000
Inertia lb   Dynamometer   125.08      Drive-train   44.09   

Speed   Tacho [Rat]   [b]Power[/b]   T.E.   IAT   HS AFR   Lambda   CO2   CO   Vac/Bst   HC   Tmp 01   Tmp 02   O2   NOx   Comments
km/h   rpm   HP   lb   degC   Petrol   Petrol   %   %   (Atmos)   ppm   degC   degC   %   ppm   
52   2690      7.0      81    15.4   10.0   0.69    0.00    0.00    -0.0 inHg       0   -252   -252    0.00       0   
54   2793      9.2     103    15.4   10.0   0.69    0.00    0.00    -0.0 inHg       0   -252   -252    0.00       0   
56   2897     12.0     130    15.4   10.0   0.69    0.00    0.00    -0.0 inHg       0   -252   -252    0.00       0   
58   3000     13.4     140    15.4   10.0   0.69    0.00    0.00    -0.0 inHg       0   -252   -252    0.00       0   
60   3103     14.5     145    15.4   10.0   0.69    0.00    0.00    -0.0 inHg       0   -252   -252    0.00       0   
62   3207     16.0     156    15.3   10.2   0.70    0.00    0.00    -0.0 inHg       0   -252   -252    0.00       0   
64   3310     17.0     161    15.4   10.2   0.70    0.00    0.00    -0.0 inHg       0   -252   -252    0.00       0   
66   3414     18.0     165    15.4   10.4   0.71    0.00    0.00    -0.0 inHg       0   -252   -252    0.00       0   
68   3517     19.0     168    15.4   10.7   0.73    0.00    0.00    -0.0 inHg       0   -252   -252    0.00       0   
70   3621     19.4     167    15.4   10.4   0.72    0.00    0.00    -0.0 inHg       0   -252   -252    0.00       0   
72   3724     19.4     163    15.4   10.4   0.72    0.00    0.00    -0.0 inHg       0   -252   -252    0.00       0   
74   3828     20.0     163    15.4   10.5   0.72    0.00    0.00    -0.0 inHg       0   -252   -252    0.00       0   
76   3931     20.0     159    15.4   10.3   0.71    0.00    0.00    -0.0 inHg       0   -252   -252    0.00       0   
78   4034     20.3     157    15.4   10.2   0.70    0.00    0.00    -0.0 inHg       0   -252   -252    0.00       0   
80   4138     20.4     154    15.4   10.1   0.69    0.00    0.00    -0.0 inHg       0   -252   -252    0.00       0   
82   4241     20.5     151    15.4   10.0   0.69    0.00    0.00    -0.0 inHg       0   -252   -252    0.00       0   
84   4345     21.0     151    15.4   10.0   0.69    0.00    0.00    -0.0 inHg       0   -252   -252    0.00       0   
86   4448     21.3     149    15.4   10.0   0.69    0.00    0.00    -0.0 inHg       0   -252   -252    0.00       0   
88   4552     21.5     148    15.4   10.1   0.69    0.00    0.00    -0.0 inHg       0   -252   -252    0.00       0   
90   4655     22.0     147    15.4   10.1   0.69    0.00    0.00    -0.0 inHg       0   -252   -252    0.00       0   
92   4759     22.3     146    15.4   10.0   0.69    0.00    0.00    -0.0 inHg       0   -252   -252    0.00       0   
94   4862     22.8     146    15.4   10.1   0.70    0.00    0.00    -0.0 inHg       0   -252   -252    0.00       0   
96   4966     23.1     145    15.4   10.2   0.70    0.00    0.00    -0.0 inHg       0   -252   -252    0.00       0   
98   5069     23.5     145    15.4   10.3   0.71    0.00    0.00    -0.0 inHg       0   -252   -252    0.00       0   
100   5172     24.2     146    15.4   10.3   0.71    0.00    0.00    -0.0 inHg       0   -252   -252    0.00       0   
102   5276     24.8     147    15.4   10.6   0.73    0.00    0.00    -0.0 inHg       0   -252   -252    0.00       0   
104   5379     25.3     147    15.4   10.8   0.74    0.00    0.00    -0.0 inHg       0   -252   -252    0.00       0   
106   5483     25.8     147    15.4   11.1   0.76    0.00    0.00    -0.0 inHg       0   -252   -252    0.00       0   
108   5586     25.9     145    15.4   11.2   0.77    0.00    0.00    -0.0 inHg       0   -252   -252    0.00       0   
110   5690     26.4     145    15.4   11.4   0.78    0.00    0.00    -0.0 inHg       0   -252   -252    0.00       0   
112   5793     26.6     143    15.4   11.4   0.78    0.00    0.00    -0.0 inHg       0   -252   -252    0.00       0   
114   5897     26.8     142    15.4   11.6   0.79    0.00    0.00    -0.0 inHg       0   -252   -252    0.00       0   

Now, here was the final run for the day. Note the improvement to the "Power Petrol" ratio. However, it is still too rich from about 3724 rpm to 5276, which will be corrected with the leaner slide.

Also note the broader torque figures, and at lower rpm. The changes were: leaning the mixture and retarding the timing to 32 degrees.


Ambient Temp.    17.0  degC   Humidity   43.0 %   Press.    1022.00 mbar   
Inlet Air Temp.   16.8  degC   Corr. used   ATMC2   0.953   Extra corr   1.000
Inertia lb   Dynamometer   125.08      Drive-train   44.09   

Speed   Tacho [Rat]   Power   T.E.   IAT   HS AFR   Lambda   CO2   CO   Vac/Bst   HC   Tmp 01   Tmp 02   O2   NOx   Comments
km/h   rpm   HP   lb   degC   Petrol   Petrol   %   %   (Atmos)   ppm   degC   degC   %   ppm   
48   2483      9.1     115    16.9   13.9   0.95    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
50   2586     11.9     144    16.8   13.3   0.92    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
52   2690     12.9     150    16.9   12.9   0.89    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
54   2793     13.7     153    16.9   12.4   0.85    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
56   2897     14.7     158    16.9   12.3   0.85    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
58   3000     15.4     160    16.9   12.2   0.84    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
60   3103     16.6     167    16.9   12.0   0.82    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
62   3207     17.4     169    16.9   12.0   0.82    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
64   3310     17.8     168    16.9   11.9   0.82    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
66   3414     18.7     171    16.9   12.0   0.83    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
68   3517     19.1     170    16.9   11.8   0.81    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
70   3621     19.3     166    16.9   11.6   0.80    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
72   3724     19.8     166    16.8   11.5   0.79    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
74   3828     19.8     162    16.9   11.3   0.78    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
76   3931     20.1     160    16.9   11.3   0.77    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
78   4034     20.2     156    16.9   11.2   0.77    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
80   4138     20.4     154    16.9   11.2   0.77    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
82   4241     20.6     151    16.9   11.0   0.75    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
84   4345     20.8     149    16.9   10.8   0.74    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
86   4448     21.0     148    16.9   10.7   0.73    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
88   4552     21.3     146    16.8   10.6   0.73    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
90   4655     21.6     145    16.9   10.6   0.73    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
92   4759     22.0     144    16.9   10.7   0.73    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
94   4862     22.5     145    16.8   10.9   0.75    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
96   4966     22.9     144    16.9   11.0   0.76    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
98   5069     23.6     145    16.9   11.1   0.76    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
100   5172     24.2     146    16.9   11.3   0.78    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
102   5276     24.8     147    16.9   11.5   0.79    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
104   5379     25.2     147    16.9   11.7   0.81    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
106   5483     25.7     147    16.9   12.0   0.82    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
108   5586     26.3     147    16.9   12.2   0.84    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
110   5690     26.5     146    16.9   12.3   0.84    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
112   5793     26.7     144    16.9   12.3   0.85    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
114   5897     27.1     143    16.9   12.4   0.85    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
116   6000     27.3     142    16.8   12.5   0.86    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   
118   6103     27.5     141    16.9   12.6   0.86    0.00    0.00     0.0 PSI       0   -250   -250    0.00       0   




Online Brian

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Re: Dynoing a dinosaur
« Reply #14 on: 22.08. 2010 08:56 »
Good stuff Richard, thanks for putting that all up.

I gather you are aiming to have a constant air/fuel ratio through the complete rev range, I would have thought that the mid range would benefit from being slightly richer as this is where most of your acceleration takes place. A modern engine would either inject a slightly richer mixture at this point or if using carbies would most likely have pumps (acceration pumps). My Guzzi for instance has 40mm delorto's with pumps and they squirt quite a stream of fuel down its throat when you twist the throttle.

I find this very interesting and wish I could look over your shoulder. To be able to see just what the engine is doing and being able to see the results when changes are made must be very satisfying plus when its all done you can be confident your bike is performing as well as it possibly can.

Just going off track for a minute, I see you have a shed full of "chook chasers" as well. I had mostly Suzuki's in my younger day, TM's, TS's, RM's etc. Anyway in 1974 I bought a new 250cc VR Montesa Cappra, this thing was unreliable and difficult to live with, but, it was the most poweful 250cc I have ever owned or ridden to this day. We lined it up against SC500 Yamaha's, RM370 Suzuki's etc and none of them could even get close, it was a truly amazing bike when it went !