Author Topic: wet sumping  (Read 5667 times)

Offline muskrat

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Re: wet sumping
« Reply #15 on: 05.01. 2011 08:38 »
Wise words Trev, worth a point.
Cheers
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Offline anjimehra

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Re: wet sumping
« Reply #16 on: 05.01. 2011 09:28 »
Hi guys
Had fit a new non retrn valve + spring during the rebuild & also tapped the ball to make a seating, but it still wet sumps if left idle for a month. Am in the process of fitting a microswitch arrangement along with a tap on my Flash to avoid wet sumping.When turned off, the tap lever will operate the microswitch, which in turn will earth the mag so the bike cannot be started if the tap is off . Will let you know what happens. Anybody has  any past experience with this arrangement, before I screw up the engine !!!
Anji
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Offline lawnmowerman

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Re: wet sumping
« Reply #17 on: 05.01. 2011 09:49 »
Hi Anji

I researched this a while ago on this post: http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php/topic,2563.msg16547.html#msg16547 I plan to fit a valve with switch, filter and OPG. I have not done the work yet but this post has some very useful information and advice from other forum members.

Jim
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Offline MG

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Re: wet sumping
« Reply #18 on: 05.01. 2011 09:54 »
Anji, afaik taps like that are readily available.
It definitely is the better solution compared to one of those spring loaded (doomsday) anti drain valves. Another good idea is to fit a rubber strap or something from the kickstart lever to the tap, so that the latter will be opened automatically when the bike is kickstarted (in case you should forget to open it and the switch has failed, which could happen as well).

BUT: There is one important issue that people tend to forget: If you have the tap closed, all the oil behind it will drain into the sump, so the feed line and oil pump will be pretty much empty after a few days. So in order to prime the pump and get all the air out, I would open the tap at least several hours (or better a day) before starting the bike!!!

Generally I'd rather invest a few minutes in draining the sump than trusting ANY kind of tap or valve in the oil feed line.

Just my 2p worth, as per usual.  *smile*
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Online groily

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Re: wet sumping
« Reply #19 on: 05.01. 2011 11:51 »
Re MG's point about temporary starvation due to the oi-feed line being empty on the engine side of the tap, I (being paranoid) always open the taps on my AMC twins (Trev is so right about them, they're quite notorious) a bit ahead of myself, to be sure of a loaded feed pump before starting. Been doing that for years, plus rigged up a mag earth (in the style of the taps available from Dove and others mentioned ages ago in the linked thread). Although draining is attractive, it's a bit of a palaver as well as messy depending on what bungs are where - and it means washing rural waste products off the underbellies.
Funnily enough, my A seems to behave well if left at tdc per LJ's comment, but isn't a bad offender even at its worst to be fair. Seem to recall there may be other reasons NOT to leave engines deliberately at tdc though, although I can't think what they are now and I've never had any trouble.
My worst wet-sumper is without doubt a Norton Atlas engine, which I am resigned to draining after leaving standing for any length of time. Massive spanner needed for that, too.
My best is my alternator B31, which never ever lets a single drop drip down, and has yet to use any oil at all, nary a single tiny drop, between 1000 mile changes. Stunning, probably a measure of luck involved (piston from Draganfly, a nice rebore and new valves and guides about 10k miles ago) - and my favourite all-time bike even if it is slow. (I know . . .  I need a B33 and/or to get out more).
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Offline MG

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Re: wet sumping
« Reply #20 on: 05.01. 2011 12:05 »
Yup, leaving the crank on TDC also helps on my As.
Some people are concerned about their mags doing so, since the armature is not short-circuiting the magnetic flux at TDC and that can foster the loss of magnetism in the permanent magnets over time. But so far I have found that this is not really an issue with the K2Fs, since they are using the more modern AlNiCo magnets, which tend to keep their magnetism much better than the old ferritic material. On real old magnets (pre-war), the magnet will loose its power within seconds when taken off the mag body and not being placed on a magnetic keeper.
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Offline iansoady

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Re: wet sumping
« Reply #21 on: 05.01. 2011 12:16 »
For those who say valves don't work I'd just mention Velo Venoms and Vipers which had such a valve fitted from new, and have a gear oil pump similar to the A10. I've never heard of a problem from them.

I had a valve fitted to my Commando for 10 years with no issues at all.

IMO the problem arises when people don't ensure the pipe below the valve is full of oil before starting the engine, so the pump tries to suck air which then doesn't produce a low enough pressure to pull the ball off its seat.
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Online trevinoz

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Re: wet sumping
« Reply #22 on: 05.01. 2011 20:07 »
Ian,
        Tell us all how you go about ensuring that there is oil between the valve and the oil pump.
Trev.
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Online bsa-bill

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Re: wet sumping
« Reply #23 on: 05.01. 2011 21:29 »
Tell you what - this is not exactly an oil thread but almost   *computer* *problem* *fight**lol*
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Online chaterlea25

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Re: wet sumping
« Reply #24 on: 05.01. 2011 21:36 »
Hi All,
Groily, you can buy a Norton big plug thingy with a small drainplug in the centre !! or easy enough to modify one so you are not constantly pulling on the threads in the crankcase ????

To the best of my knowledge, Norton, Velo and others have Iron bodied pumps?
BSA's are as I have said before are made of "compressed monkey dung" *ex*
and they leak and can be porous as well, so they are poorer than others at sucking a prime when a "tap or valve" is fitted!!!

Regards
John O R
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Offline a10gf

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Re: wet sumping
« Reply #25 on: 05.01. 2011 21:43 »
Quote
made of "compressed monkey dung"
*smile* lol+ Yes, the pump look like it may fall apart anytime. Regarding wetsumping, that's one problem I never had with normal or sporadic use (could stay still for weeks \ month or two with minimal oil tank drain). Mainly used 40 oil all the time, changed often. Never thought of needing any valve.
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Online chaterlea25

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Re: wet sumping
« Reply #26 on: 05.01. 2011 21:45 »
HI All
Yup, my Brothers SR threw a rod and the cause was down to a porus pump body *eek*

John O R
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Offline LJ.

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Re: wet sumping
« Reply #27 on: 05.01. 2011 22:43 »
If there is one 'Good' thing about draining out the oil from the sump and that is the possible discovery of petrol! Your taps might not be leaking externally and appear quite dry to the touch, but if the float needle in the carb is also leaky then you could find that petrol is getting past and running down past the pistons and into the sump. I have found this once and have been lucky.  *eek*
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Offline anjimehra

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Re: wet sumping
« Reply #28 on: 06.01. 2011 07:48 »
Anji, afaik taps like that are readily available.
It definitely is the better solution compared to one of those spring loaded (doomsday) anti drain valves. Another good idea is to fit a rubber strap or something from the kickstart lever to the tap, so that the latter will be opened automatically when the bike is kickstarted (in case you should forget to open it and the switch has failed, which could happen as well).

BUT: There is one important issue that people tend to forget: If you have the tap closed, all the oil behind it will drain into the sump, so the feed line and oil pump will be pretty much empty after a few days. So in order to prime the pump and get all the air out, I would open the tap at least several hours (or better a day) before starting the bike!!!

Generally I'd rather invest a few minutes in draining the sump than trusting ANY kind of tap or valve in the oil feed line.

Just my 2p worth, as per usual.  *smile*

Hi MG
Thanks for the feedback. Hadnt thought about the line being empty after a long shutdown.Will keep this in mind when I go through with the mod.Thanks
Anji
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Offline iansoady

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Re: wet sumping
« Reply #29 on: 06.01. 2011 10:57 »
Ian,
        Tell us all how you go about ensuring that there is oil between the valve and the oil pump.
Trev.

The Velo valve is fitted immediately below the oil tank.

Remove the pipe from the union and carefully fill the pipe. I used a small syringe like the ones you get with inkjet printer refilling kits. It takes a while and is fiddly but easy enough.

For the in-line one fitted to the Commando the easiest way was to dismantle the valve and fill it up through that.

If you think about it, provided the top of the valve is always below the oil level in the tank, the pipe is full on assembly, and all the joints are well made, there is no way air can be sucked into the region between the valve and the pump.

I've never actually seen a convincing documented failure which can definitely be put down to one of these valves failing. But of course, as with anything else, I'm open to persuasion.
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Ian.
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