Author Topic: Pushrod question - problems starting new engine  (Read 9033 times)

Offline Duncan R

  • Valued Contributor
  • ****
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Posts: 291
  • Karma: 3
Re: Pushrod question - problems starting new engine
« Reply #45 on: 16.02. 2011 14:05 »
Still nothing can't even get it running on one now - sorely tempted to chuck the bloody thing in a van and dump it off at a workshop, I have been going round in circles for the last 5 days or so and can see no way I am going to sort this out.
Anglo - Indian A7SS (Actually is a 650)
Kawasaki ZZR 1100
BMW R80GS
BMW R1100GS

Offline Alan @Ncl

  • Greenflash
  • Moving Up
  • **
  • Join Date: Jan 2011
  • Posts: 88
  • Karma: 0
  • Newcastle on Tyne, UK
Re: Pushrod question - problems starting new engine
« Reply #46 on: 16.02. 2011 14:22 »
Sympathy is all I can offer from here.  I am in exactly the same position.  Everything says it should go but it won't.  When I started reading you sentence and saw 'chucking it in the van, I thought you were going to say 'dump it on the tip' as that is what I have felt like doing a few times.  Doubly disappointing you can't even get going on one cylinder now.  I assume you have gone though all the checks again as if starting from scratch; Compression, Timing, Fuel at plugs, Spark at plugs etc.

Good luck

Alan

Offline Duncan R

  • Valued Contributor
  • ****
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Posts: 291
  • Karma: 3
Re: Pushrod question - problems starting new engine
« Reply #47 on: 16.02. 2011 15:30 »
Hi Alan,

Thanks - Its now running on one again, both plugs sparking,fuel - judging by my aching right leg compression seems good ! I need one of the starters they use on the grid in Moto GP.

I will check the timing yet again! checked it before on both cylinders and it seemed fairly even (I don't have a degree disc)

I am now going to put the rest of the sodding thing back together (just for something diffrent to do) at least if do decide to take it somewhere it will be in one bit.

Cheers

Duncan
Anglo - Indian A7SS (Actually is a 650)
Kawasaki ZZR 1100
BMW R80GS
BMW R1100GS

Offline Alan @Ncl

  • Greenflash
  • Moving Up
  • **
  • Join Date: Jan 2011
  • Posts: 88
  • Karma: 0
  • Newcastle on Tyne, UK
Re: Pushrod question - problems starting new engine
« Reply #48 on: 16.02. 2011 15:57 »
Well that is something at least.  You are still ahead of me; but I have given up for now and am containing myself to a paper exercise (or the internet equivalent thereof).  Does it feel like it has equal compression on both sides (i.e. same effort to kick both)? 

I expect you have tried swapping the plug from the firing cylinder onto the dud one and possibly the lead and pickup too (not talking about swapping timing sides here of course as that must be right if it runs on one). 

Alan


Online bsa-bill

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2006
  • Posts: 5341
  • Karma: 61
Re: Pushrod question - problems starting new engine
« Reply #49 on: 16.02. 2011 16:15 »
Aha Alan beat me to a reply

I'm thinking if you have a spark on both plugs the reason it runs on one is that only one plug is sparking when it should.
I'm not talking camring inaccuracies but pickups not both contacting the slip ring 180 degrees apart, this is I understand (forum gurus again) ipossible if the brush in the pickup is not fully home and can run at an angle to the slipring ( instead of 90 deg), this would of course alter its timing.
Quick test would be to swap pickups from one side to another and give them a good look while out, it should be possible to push the brush right in or almost right in to the holder.

Just another tuppence worth ( you should be quite a wealthy man soon) *smiley4*
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Offline Duncan R

  • Valued Contributor
  • ****
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Posts: 291
  • Karma: 3
Re: Pushrod question - problems starting new engine
« Reply #50 on: 16.02. 2011 19:15 »
Thanks Bill,

I am going to order a new set of pick ups, when I took one out yesterday it came adrift from the spring,now it does not push into housing fully because I have  had to hook the spring round the thicker part of the brush, still sparks though. They look really mickey mouse, any recomendations where to buy new ones?

I have put the rest of the bike back together because I am confident this problem will be solved and I can access everything anyway.

Cheers

Duncan
Anglo - Indian A7SS (Actually is a 650)
Kawasaki ZZR 1100
BMW R80GS
BMW R1100GS

Online RichardL

  • Outside Chicago, IL
  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2007
  • Posts: 4937
  • Karma: 46
Re: Pushrod question - problems starting new engine
« Reply #51 on: 16.02. 2011 20:33 »
This has been an interesting discussion, but I couldn't resist noting that it has been 43 posts since the discussion was about pushrods, so, "My, I do love how they are  nice straight metal tubes with roundy ends, and so functional!"

Richard L.
Plan on signing up for the world-wide 2017 DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDE on September 30, 2018. Watch website at https://www.gentlemansride.com for details.

Online bsa-bill

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2006
  • Posts: 5341
  • Karma: 61
Re: Pushrod question - problems starting new engine
« Reply #52 on: 16.02. 2011 22:32 »
Quote
and so functional!"

That's the trouble with them, nothing to go wrong so we switched the topic to something Joe Lucas made  *smiley4*
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Offline Duncan R

  • Valued Contributor
  • ****
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Posts: 291
  • Karma: 3
Re: Pushrod question - problems starting new engine
« Reply #53 on: 20.02. 2011 15:42 »
I replaced the mag pick up brushes - I saw a post fromBeezealex about a spark test, use an old plug and open up the gap to 60 thou, if the spark jumps the gap it should be a usable spark. Tried this and no problem at all - nice fat spark.

I bought a cheap compression tester off Amazon - this test did not go so well, after about 5 kicks I only got 25psi on the RH cylinder (this cylinder runs) Nothing on the LH (non running)

I made a note of the valve cycle whilst turning over by hand; I took note of the valves after every 360 turn at TDC. All valves are operating i.e opening and closing fully

RH Cylinder                            LH Cylinder

in   closed                              in  partial open, no clearence

ex  closed                              ex  partial open, no clearence
-----------------------------------------------------------
in     partial open, no clearence  in  closed

ex     partial open,no clearence  ex closed 
-----------------------------------------------------------
in     closed                             in partial open, no clearence

ex    closed                             ex partial open, no clearence
----------------------------------- ------------------------
in     partial open,no clearence    in closed

ex    partial open, no clearence   ex closed

By looking at this can anyone say wheather the valves are cycling correctly? The timing seems a bit odd, for instance at one point the inlets were both open.

Thanks

Duncan
Anglo - Indian A7SS (Actually is a 650)
Kawasaki ZZR 1100
BMW R80GS
BMW R1100GS

Offline lawnmowerman

  • Resident Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2009
  • Posts: 576
  • Karma: 8
  • 1959 Super Rocket. Kent, England
Re: Pushrod question - problems starting new engine
« Reply #54 on: 20.02. 2011 16:26 »
Hi Duncan
Looks ok to me. You are getting a bang every other rev from each cylinder and they are are 360 degrees apart. It is normal I believe for the inlet and exhaust to be briefly open together - this overlap gives better breathing allowing the incoming mixture to help purge the exhaust gases and gives the characteristic "twitter" on some bikes.  What is worrying is the lack of compression - did you squirt some oil down each bore before testing? If you have and the valve clearances are ok it can only be a loose or poorly seated head, leaky valve seats, sticky valves or broken / worn piston rings.

Jim
1959 A10 SR
1938 Wolseley 14/60
1955 Ferguson TEF20 tractor
1965 Ferguson 135 tractor
1952 Matchless G80 rigid
1960 BMW R60
1954 Matchless G80S
1955 Ariel 500 VH
1951 Sunbeam S7DL
1960 Matchless G12 with Watsonian Monza
......and loads of lawnmowers

Too old to Rock and Roll but too young to die  (Jethro Tull 1976)

Offline Duncan R

  • Valued Contributor
  • ****
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Posts: 291
  • Karma: 3
Re: Pushrod question - problems starting new engine
« Reply #55 on: 20.02. 2011 17:03 »
Thanks Jim,

It has brand new pistons and rings I will try another test with some oil down the bores. Also check the clearences again. It feels like there is enough compression on the kickstart, it needs a heafty boot to turn it over. Head was torqued down to 34ft/lbs with new annealed gasket. Bike was running ok before I had a problem with a nut getting sucked into the combustion chamber, that happened on the RH cylinder,that cylinder is running.

Cheers

Duncan
Anglo - Indian A7SS (Actually is a 650)
Kawasaki ZZR 1100
BMW R80GS
BMW R1100GS

Offline lawnmowerman

  • Resident Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2009
  • Posts: 576
  • Karma: 8
  • 1959 Super Rocket. Kent, England
Re: Pushrod question - problems starting new engine
« Reply #56 on: 20.02. 2011 17:46 »
Hmm..... interesting - how did the nut get sucked in - was it via the carb? Did it do any damage to the valve seats or valves? I am thinking that if it entered via the carb it may have wedged one of the valves open which then got clouted by the piston and bent the stem.
It seems strange that the cylinder which had the nut inside is ok.
If you can feel compression on both when you kick it over then it seems odd that the comp tester is showing zero on one side - is it one of the type that you hold in the plug hole - if so could it be that it is leaking while you are kicking it over as it will be awkward to do on your own as the cylinder is on the left and you are kicking from the right.
In one of your earlier posts you say that the mag was rebuilt long ago - it is not unheard of for mags to only last about 7 years although many will say that they still have a 40 year old mag that is still working fine. I have it on good authority that if you could find a brand new mag which was manufactured in the fifties it would still need to be rebuilt to use now due to the materials used then.
Although your mag is sparking in open air on a wide gap I wonder how it is performing under compression - the only way to prove it would be to retime the mag 180 degrees out and see if you can make the left cylinder run.

Jim
1959 A10 SR
1938 Wolseley 14/60
1955 Ferguson TEF20 tractor
1965 Ferguson 135 tractor
1952 Matchless G80 rigid
1960 BMW R60
1954 Matchless G80S
1955 Ariel 500 VH
1951 Sunbeam S7DL
1960 Matchless G12 with Watsonian Monza
......and loads of lawnmowers

Too old to Rock and Roll but too young to die  (Jethro Tull 1976)

Offline Duncan R

  • Valued Contributor
  • ****
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Posts: 291
  • Karma: 3
Re: Pushrod question - problems starting new engine
« Reply #57 on: 20.02. 2011 18:04 »
Hi Jim,

The nut found its way in through the inlet - it must have been in the airfilter. It happened when I restarted the bike after a fairly long run, I knew something was wrong straight away and stopped the engine and bike was recovered.

I can't be sure about the tester, its a scew in type, it was very cheap,£7 off Amazon, can't hear any leaks coming out the adapter or the hose.

I think the next course of action is getting the mag tested
Anglo - Indian A7SS (Actually is a 650)
Kawasaki ZZR 1100
BMW R80GS
BMW R1100GS

Offline muskrat

  • Global Moderator
  • Wise & Enlightened
  • **
  • Join Date: Jul 2009
  • Posts: 8023
  • Karma: 106
  • Lake Conjola NSW Oz
    • Shoalhaven Classic Motorcycle Club Inc
Re: Pushrod question - problems starting new engine
« Reply #58 on: 20.02. 2011 19:01 »
G'day Duncan,
                   you need to hold the throttle wide open when you kick it over to get a good reading on the tester. Keep kicking till the needle stops going up, 5 to 10 kicks.
 Not unheard of an object (nut) going in one cylinder then coming out the inlet and into the next cylinder. Mum's car had 1 ball bearing destroy 3 pistons  *eek*.
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS now A10CR, '76 XT500, '77 AG175 '83 CB1100F, '81 CB900F project.
Australia
Muskys Plunger A7

Offline lawnmowerman

  • Resident Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2009
  • Posts: 576
  • Karma: 8
  • 1959 Super Rocket. Kent, England
Re: Pushrod question - problems starting new engine
« Reply #59 on: 20.02. 2011 19:59 »
Hi Duncan

My theory of a bent valve stem could be possible if, as Muskrat says, the nut can be spat out of one pot back into the inlet manifold and be sucked into the other pot - maybe it did the damage in the left and finally came to rest in the right. Did you check the head over while it was off and remove the valves, check the seats and reseat?
If it has been a long time since the mag has been reconditioned it may be worth getting it checked - I was quoted £30. I convinced myself that my problems are mag related so saved the £30 and went straight for a rewind and rebuild. At least it gives peace of mind in that area as mag faults can give all sorts of random symptoms and if you know it is A1 it gives a good starting point. The armature should be back next week so hopefully I will get the mag back the week after.
I also invested in the SRM timing kit with a piston stop, degree disc and mainshaft nut replacement to mount the disc. Once I have the timing spot on and checked with a strobe, I will make an adjustable piston stop from an old spark plug as Muskrat suggested and lock it off at 30.5 degrees BTDC (Super Rocket) so I can find the correct setting again without having the take the drive side cover off (and pipe and footrest) and mount the timing disc.

Jim
1959 A10 SR
1938 Wolseley 14/60
1955 Ferguson TEF20 tractor
1965 Ferguson 135 tractor
1952 Matchless G80 rigid
1960 BMW R60
1954 Matchless G80S
1955 Ariel 500 VH
1951 Sunbeam S7DL
1960 Matchless G12 with Watsonian Monza
......and loads of lawnmowers

Too old to Rock and Roll but too young to die  (Jethro Tull 1976)