Author Topic: Oil-leak....and it's not even running yet...AUGH!  (Read 4950 times)

Offline octane

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A few days back the engine looked like this:


photobucket xxx

as of today it's just about re-assembled, except I haven't
yet had the 'pleasure' of getting the pushrods/rocker-cover installed:


photobucket xxx

I was extremely @nal about cleaning the two crankcase halves
and I used a thin film of Hondabond putting them together.


Before I put on the cylinders, I poured 'ULTRALUBE Cam and Assembly Lube' (red sticky stuff)
over the new camshaft
....and goodness; it's weeping out, rigth below the cam-shaft:


photobucket xxx

Yes: I did tighten the upper nut 'inside' the crankcase.
Can't imagine what went wrong, but obviously something did.

Ohh well; time to crack the darn thing apart again and redo the assembly.

Ahhh: the joy of messing with old Brit iron.....ha ha

adm edit: uploaded 2 main pictures to forum as 'safety' in case the embedded pic went missing from the ext. server.

Offline octane

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Re: Oil-leak....and it's not even running yet...AUGH!
« Reply #1 on: 18.07. 2008 12:48 »
Of cause it was all my own fault (and a problem with the Hondabond)
and I'm just happy that I found out now, and not after the engine had been installed in the frame
PHEW!!!


1)..I had used the bond, but NOT on the area under and beside where the cam is.
....er...late night...tired...inhaling brake-cleaner vapour....er....bad excuses

Usually when I use liquid gasket I let it sit for a while before I tighten up the bolts
so it has time to harden a bit to preserve the "filling-properties" so to speak.
Obviously in this case it had prevented the two crankcase-halves to
come together around the cam-area................bad!



BTW: beats me how that area could ever be oil-tight without
the use of some sort of gasket.
It forms a small 'pond' under the cam-shaft
with no 'drain' , so there bound to be a small oil-reservoir there, at all times.


2)..something was terribly wrong with the Hondabond:
it didn't...er...bond...at all (!)
 I could peal it off with no effort what-so-ever..
 It was like crumbling; very 'dry'.



So I've made an highly scientific experiment to
find out what to use next time.

6 different brands of liquid gasket / silicone RTV
(including some other stuff from Honda, Hylomar, Permatex and Loctite I've used before)

Put it on some rather slippery plastic to see how well it 'glue's on to that
and on an old outer cover and laid washers on it
to see which one 'glue's the best, when I rip off the washers in 24 hours time:



I do understand that they have different qualities;
some are supposed to 'cure' like silicone,
others will remain 'sticky'.



The exiting result will be published tomorrow.


Online bsa-bill

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Re: Oil-leak....and it's not even running yet...AUGH!
« Reply #2 on: 18.07. 2008 13:48 »
Oh I do like a bit of scientific investigation - will be interesting to hear your findings.
I like to use the sealer that only sets in the absence of air, any excess dissolves harmless in oil, and I use a very minimal amount on the crankcases, these are machined as pairs and provided they have not been parted with chisels or large screwdrivers they should be oil tight as they are. ( well - perfect world allowing)
I also like the look of your engine, a leak would spoil it for sure.
How did you get the effects on the polished alloy - is it etched?

I did a little experiment of my own yesterday, I had an idea the rockerbox would look good painted black, contrasting with the alloy head.
I painted the rockerbox with black water paint sat it on top of the head which in turn was sat on top of the black barrels and viewed it from several angles - nope it does not work for me and now that I have seen yours I am convinced it is wrong so it's next step is a visit o the kitchen sink for a wash.
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Offline octane

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Re: Oil-leak....and it's not even running yet...AUGH!
« Reply #3 on: 18.07. 2008 14:51 »
Hi Bill

I like to use the sealer that only sets in the absence of air
..like Loctite thread-lock does.
What brand of gasket is it you use?


Quote
I also like the look of your engine
Thanks
Quote
How did you get the effects on the polished alloy - is it etched?
Naa;
Using a 'negative' logo + some masking tape etc.
I masked off the rest of the side-cover
, so I could glass-bead blast the logo into it:





BTW:

My name is Lars.
I'll do a proper intro shortly.

Offline a10gf

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Re: Oil-leak....and it's not even running yet...AUGH!
« Reply #4 on: 18.07. 2008 15:00 »
 *eek* + *smil* this is impressive work indeed. My compliments.

A10 GF '53 My A10 website
"Success only gets you a ticket to a much more difficult task"

Online RichardL

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Re: Oil-leak....and it's not even running yet...AUGH!
« Reply #5 on: 18.07. 2008 16:00 »
I don't know if others do this, but I think this might be the place to mention it. When I have assembled my crankcase, using the smear of Permatex I do, I have used all the studs through the crankcase in order to compress the sealant and allow it to cure. Then, when it's time to mount it in the frame, the studs come out for the time it takes to get it mounted. I do similarly with the outer timing cover, but am less stringent, due to the ease in resealing, if necessary.

By the way, I'm not promoting the Permatex here, it's just what I had (and think, adequate). I know there is better, I just couldn't put my hands on it when I needed it.

Richard
Plan on signing up for the world-wide 2020 DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDEon September 27, 2020. This year it's a solo or pillion ride in dapper attire. Watch website at https://www.gentlemansride.com for details.


Offline dpaddock

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Re: Oil-leak....and it's not even running yet...AUGH!
« Reply #6 on: 18.07. 2008 16:15 »
Quote
It forms a small 'pond' under the cam-shaft
with no 'drain' , so there bound to be a small oil-reservoir there, at all times.

BSA intended this so that the cam lobes would always have oil, especially upon start up.
David
'57 Spitfire


Online Brian

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Re: Oil-leak....and it's not even running yet...AUGH!
« Reply #7 on: 19.07. 2008 01:05 »
Everbody no doubt has their favorite type of gasket cement, I use Loctite 515 Flange sealant. Ive used this for many years and found it to be an excellent compound. Can be used with or without a gasket and like most Loctite products its an anaerobic compound [sets when deprived of air] so sets where you want it too but can be easily wiped off the outside. By the way I dont work for Loctite !

Offline octane

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Re: Oil-leak....and it's not even running yet...AUGH!
« Reply #8 on: 19.07. 2008 14:52 »
*eek* + *smil* this is impressive work indeed. My compliments.
Oh! Thank you !

Quote
It forms a small 'pond' under the cam-shaft
with no 'drain' , so there bound to be a small oil-reservoir there, at all times.

BSA intended this so that the cam lobes would always have oil, especially upon start up.
Yes; makes sense! Same thing on my Honda's.


Everbody no doubt has their favorite type of gasket cement, I use Loctite 515 Flange sealant. Ive used this for many years and found it to be an excellent compound. Can be used with or without a gasket and like most Loctite products its an anaerobic compound [sets when deprived of air] ...
I'm not sure I will go the same route.
I'm sure this could be argued from several angles
BUT;
I'm just thinking that if it only cures where there's no air;
it only cures where there really is no need for a liquid gasket (where the two surfaces are a perfect match)
I would like the liquid gasket to 'fill' and cure where the joining surfaces don't fit.

BTW the silicone-based Loctite products, like the one I tried in my 'test', cure by the moisture in the air.

For info/specifications on all Loctite products: CLICK
...then click the underscored: "Technical Data Sheets" and then punch in the specific product.
A Pdf will pop up.


Anyway here's the result:

Test one: press a finger firmly down on the gasket and move finger to the right
(to test adhesion when used between two surfaces that flex/move/expand)

Surface is VERY smooth/slippery plastic


Upper row:
Honda Liquid Gasket 1216 (not Hondabond)---> wouldn't break loose (but using fingernails it came off quite easily)
Blue Hylomar ---> sticks on, no matter what I did (but being a non-curing type it did of cause change 'shape')
Permatex Ultra Blue ---> broke loose



Lower row:
Loctite 5926 Blue (silicone-based) ---> sticks VERY well. Didn't brake loose (but disintegrated within it own 'body' when using blunt force)
Permatex  Ultra Grey ---> broke loose
Non-brand 'blue universal'---> acted the same as Blue Hylomar






Test 2.: grab the washer and pull. To test adhesion metal to metal.

Upper row:

Honda Liquid Gasket 1216 --->took some force to break loose. Never let go of metal but 'broke' within it's own 'body'
Blue Hylomar ---> just 'squashed' loose . Gasket-material never still present ON the metal.
Permatex Ultra Blue ---> couldn't get it off using my fingers. VERY strong adhesion



Lower row:
Loctite 5926 Blue (silicone-based) ---> broke off easily. Did NOT glue on to the surface. Just snapped off.
Permatex  Ultra Grey ---> couldn't get it off using my fingers. VERY strong adhesion
Non-brand 'blue universal'---> acted the same as Blue Hylomar



Now what to use?
I guess it very much depends on WHERE one would use it / would one want it to be permanent etc.

I for one would not use the non-curing stuff (like Hylomar) on let's say the
crank-case halves.
I would fear the high pressure would sort of press it out.
Probably be great on transmission/gear-box body
or in places where one would like to be able to disassemble and put back
without applying gasket again (maybe an ignition distributor cover or similar)

For the crankcase and timing-side covers I'll go for Permatex.
Must 'glue' well and withstand pressure.




Online RichardL

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Re: Oil-leak....and it's not even running yet...AUGH!
« Reply #9 on: 19.07. 2008 15:23 »
Lars,

Permatex grey or blue? I have some of the grey and think it is quite a good material, absent, until now, an empiracal scientific test to show it. One thing that has concerned me is the temperature rating of the various materials. The Permatex Ultra Grey is good to 400 degrees F., making it fine for the crankcase, temperature-wise. On the other hand, I wonder what the temperaure is at the base of the barrels. I can't recall which Permatx product is rated at 500 degrees, and don't feel like researching at this minute, but I know I couldn't find it In my local stores, so I assembled with the 400 degree product. Perhaps a bit of a dice roll, but I figured that the connection to the aluminum case would serve to keep temperature under control at the base of the barrels.

Regarding pressure in the crankcase, we have had a lot of discussion of that under another topic. It is my opinion that the purpose of the breather is to keep the crankcase as near to 1 atmosphere as possible, to allow for oil inflow and suck out. As far as I know, no one here has thrown a pressure gauge on the crankcase to know the actual value. Perhaps someone with a tube at his breather port will be inspired to try it.

Richard
Plan on signing up for the world-wide 2020 DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDEon September 27, 2020. This year it's a solo or pillion ride in dapper attire. Watch website at https://www.gentlemansride.com for details.


Offline octane

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Re: Oil-leak....and it's not even running yet...AUGH!
« Reply #10 on: 19.07. 2008 16:42 »
Hi Richard !

The Ultra Grey Permatex is rated to 315 C / 600 F
and the Ultra Blue to 205 C / 400 F

I checked around ; It could be different from what you have.
Apparently Ultra Blue is not allway the same as Ultra Blue in some other markets.
Like what it says on my tubes here, is not intirely the same as what it says on
Permatex [US] home-page.



Blue Hylomar: 250 C / 480 F

Loctite 5926: 204 C / 400F

Another thing to consider is that these things are
made for different applications, like the Loctite 515
"..is designed for close fitting flanged parts with gaps up to 0.25m [0.01"]..."
according to the data-sheet.

Offline octane

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Re: Oil-leak....and it's not even running yet...AUGH!
« Reply #11 on: 19.07. 2008 17:25 »
PS:
has anyone actually measured the temperature
on the engine , fully warmed up?

..on the cylinders / head ?

The only place I've seen an actual temperature mentioned
was on the CBXWorld forum (yes I have a 1979 six-cylinder Honda1000 Supersport)
during a discussion on what to use for engine-paint, them being air-cooled (+oil-cooler)
and therefore running rather hot.
So a member posted this:

"....At a recent race meeting here in Oz at Phillip Island, Melbourne, Australia, an engine tuner friend was using an Infrared Temperature probe to measure tyre temps and Engine & cyl. head temps on a hotted to the max CB900F (which made CB1100Rs it was competing against look like they were going backwards) at the end of each race & practice session. It was a hand held device that you simply pointed at the target to be measured and an infrared beam shone on the surface and recorded the surface temperature. Max temperature we observed on the Cyl. head was 170 degrees Centigrade (338 F) near the spark plugs of cyls 2 & 3 on the exhaust side of the spark plug itself (ie; deep in the bowels of the cylinder head, NOT measured at the front of the cyl. head which, due to receiving the brunt of the cooler air may be many degrees cooler than the centre of the head). Measurements taken immediately the engine was shut down after each outing on return to the pits...."

Online RichardL

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Re: Oil-leak....and it's not even running yet...AUGH!
« Reply #12 on: 19.07. 2008 18:35 »
Lars,

The "Ultra" I was referrng to is actually 85409, rubber gasket sealer (400 F.). The other, that I could not find, is 85249 Permatex/Hylomar Universal Blue gasket dressing (500 F.) I think the Ultra Blue and Grey, as I see them at the US Permatex site are both 500 F.

Now, when I tell you what I actually used on my crankcase joint you are probably going to laugh and resolve to never respond to my posts again, and that was, Permatex Form-A-Gasket #2.  I figure if it worked for me when working on cars forty years ago it will still work now. I have purchsed a new tube since then. (Don't get me wrong, I also use others). 

Richard
Plan on signing up for the world-wide 2020 DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDEon September 27, 2020. This year it's a solo or pillion ride in dapper attire. Watch website at https://www.gentlemansride.com for details.


Offline fido

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Re: Oil-leak....and it's not even running yet...AUGH!
« Reply #13 on: 20.07. 2008 08:54 »
I wish you the best of luck with getting your engine oil-tight, octane, it looks from the photos like it has been dismantled using hammers and chisels in the past  :o

Offline octane

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Re: Oil-leak....and it's not even running yet...AUGH!
« Reply #14 on: 21.07. 2008 13:52 »
Now, when I tell you what I actually used on my crankcase joint you are probably going to laugh and resolve to never respond to my posts again...
I AM responding right here...am I not

.-)

I wish you the best of luck with getting your engine oil-tight, octane,
Thanks Fido!

Quote
.. it looks from the photos like it has been dismantled using hammers and chisels in the past...
Yes it has been used and abused in the past. I taking good care of it now.


Lars.