Author Topic: Spring retainers  (Read 2246 times)

Offline JulianM

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Spring retainers
« on: 19.06. 2012 16:43 »
Hi,
I am trying to find someone who can supply me with alloy or Titanium valve spring retainers for my A10 SR engine,  also need collets.
Anyone any ideas or is this a "make your self" jobbie?
Have tried SRM and Burton,
Surely someone does these from stock?

Regards,
Julian.
55 Ariel HS mk1,
58 BSA Super Rocket Scrambler special,
60 BSA Gold Star, Jim hunter desert racer,
64 Norton N15CS,
65 Triumph TR6 SS,
66 Triumph Bonneville,
71 AJS Stormer,
71 BSA Rocket 3,
71 Laverda 750SF,
71 Laverda/Egli 750SF, Race bike,
73 Norton Commando 850,
74 Moto Morini 3-1/2 Sport,
74 Bultaco Sherpa 350,
76 Beta Cross 50,
77 Moto Guzzi Le Mans Mk1,
80 Ducati 900 MHR,

Offline duTch

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Re: Spring retainers
« Reply #1 on: 19.06. 2012 16:55 »
I got some collars from SRM a few weeks ago, already had the colletts, but they ain't alloy or titanium, I'd say those jobbies are 'Rocket science'-DIY, not hard if you got the right tool?(and say it fast) good luck
Started building in about 1977/8 a on average '52 A10 -built from bits 'n pieces never resto intended -maybe 'personalised'
Have a '74 850T Moto Guzzi since '92-best thing I ever bought doesn't need a kickstart 'cos it bump starts sooooooooo(mostly) easy
Australia

Offline JulianM

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Re: Spring retainers
« Reply #2 on: 19.06. 2012 18:25 »
Hi Dutch,
Got the right tools etc and do make them fairly often but was hoping that someone would have some in stock. 
Collets are another thing. SRM don't have them and I don't fancy pissing about and making those if I don't have to!!
Suppose I will have to chat with my local supplier for collets when the valves arrive and then make the retainers to match.

Julian
55 Ariel HS mk1,
58 BSA Super Rocket Scrambler special,
60 BSA Gold Star, Jim hunter desert racer,
64 Norton N15CS,
65 Triumph TR6 SS,
66 Triumph Bonneville,
71 AJS Stormer,
71 BSA Rocket 3,
71 Laverda 750SF,
71 Laverda/Egli 750SF, Race bike,
73 Norton Commando 850,
74 Moto Morini 3-1/2 Sport,
74 Bultaco Sherpa 350,
76 Beta Cross 50,
77 Moto Guzzi Le Mans Mk1,
80 Ducati 900 MHR,

Offline baz

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Re: Spring retainers
« Reply #3 on: 19.06. 2012 18:32 »
this is just my opinion but i would be wary of those alloy retainers i have seen them with the collets half pulled through them,on a B44 head that i bought the collets had dug in so deep i had to drill all around the valve to release the spring,,,,,,,,,,,,,,cheers baz

Online chaterlea25

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Re: Spring retainers
« Reply #4 on: 19.06. 2012 23:25 »
Hi Julian,
Welcome  *smile*

If you do a search either here or on the "net" you should find a copy of the "Eddy Dow" tuning mods for the A10 SR/RGS engine
The mods include fitting Gold Star valve springs, alloy caps and Goldie collets
I found this setup when I dismantled my RGS  engine
It looked like it had been there a long time and had not suffered in any way  *smile*

Re the Alloy barrels, I know that now parts can be scanned on a 3D basis to be remanufactured by CNC machining, the programme would then need modifying to increase thickness in various places and to modify where the "liners" stick into the crankcase
If you machine yours would you follow the BSA camfollower design or go the Triumph route as on those ebay barrels? 

Regards
John O R
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline JulianM

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Re: Spring retainers
« Reply #5 on: 20.06. 2012 08:29 »
Hi guys, and thanks for the helpful comments.

Baz,
I too have seen the sights you describe, but generally when made from the correct grade ally I have no problems, even on race engines with high spring pressures. And certainly in relatively "short lifed" engines such as mine I have confidence.

John, Yep, the RGS spec sounds good to me!  Out of interest, what revs do people usually use on the RGS in moderate race trim?

The block will be point "touch" scanned, to give a rough measurement guide and then designed for CNC machining after that.  I want it to resemble the stock part but it doesn't need to be an exact copy, just not look out of place.  The base flange will be heavily reinforced and the main barrels will be a lot thicker to cope with not only the extra bore size but the power output of a 750 on 10.5:1 cr  (whatever that turns out to be)  Material will probably be 6061 or 7075-T6 but prob the former.   Will start the process properly in early July as my schedule is a bit full until then.

Regards and thanks all for making me welcome.
Julian
55 Ariel HS mk1,
58 BSA Super Rocket Scrambler special,
60 BSA Gold Star, Jim hunter desert racer,
64 Norton N15CS,
65 Triumph TR6 SS,
66 Triumph Bonneville,
71 AJS Stormer,
71 BSA Rocket 3,
71 Laverda 750SF,
71 Laverda/Egli 750SF, Race bike,
73 Norton Commando 850,
74 Moto Morini 3-1/2 Sport,
74 Bultaco Sherpa 350,
76 Beta Cross 50,
77 Moto Guzzi Le Mans Mk1,
80 Ducati 900 MHR,

Online chaterlea25

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Re: Spring retainers
« Reply #6 on: 20.06. 2012 22:36 »
Hi Julian,
I think that the original rev limits were constrained by the original conrods ?? also the bottom flange of the cylinder breaking  *sad2*
I dont know what the next weakest link in the chain will be ????
Have a search here on "through bolting" (not fully through bolted but on the outer 4 bolts)
It may give you ideas on strenghtening the engine further??

Regards
John O R
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline JulianM

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Re: Spring retainers
« Reply #7 on: 21.06. 2012 07:31 »
Thanks John,
Will have a look.

I don't intend to build a monster of an engine, and don't intend to rev the nuts off of it as it will be in an enduro anyway, but the low gearing would benefit from an engine with the ability to spin a bit quick if needed. I do hope to get maybe 55 to 60 hp from it.  I have no idea whether that is reasonable for a BSA twin or not as I know relatively little about them. But I have extensive experience in engine modification in general and do it as a day job so with a little thought I think it should be possible from a decent sized twin of this nature. The new head has lots of material and looks capable of being modified to give reasonable flow although in standard form it would work better backwards  *smile* *smile*   We will see and I will keep updating as I go if anyone is interested.  I would also be very pleased to hear other people?s ideas and experiences. "I may not listen but you can always then say I told you so when I bugger it up"  ;)

PS.
It has to stay a 360 twin as that is part of its character so no 270 suggestions please.  *smiley4*
55 Ariel HS mk1,
58 BSA Super Rocket Scrambler special,
60 BSA Gold Star, Jim hunter desert racer,
64 Norton N15CS,
65 Triumph TR6 SS,
66 Triumph Bonneville,
71 AJS Stormer,
71 BSA Rocket 3,
71 Laverda 750SF,
71 Laverda/Egli 750SF, Race bike,
73 Norton Commando 850,
74 Moto Morini 3-1/2 Sport,
74 Bultaco Sherpa 350,
76 Beta Cross 50,
77 Moto Guzzi Le Mans Mk1,
80 Ducati 900 MHR,

Online chaterlea25

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Re: Spring retainers
« Reply #8 on: 21.06. 2012 23:06 »
Hi Julian,
If you get horsepower in that range ( I hope you do  *smile*)
The BSA/ Triumph clutch wont cope  *sad2* not to mind the single row primary chain
I would suggest something like a Bob Newby Belt drive and clutch setup, along with a splined gearbox mainshaft
 ???? ????

Regards
John O R
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline JulianM

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Re: Spring retainers
« Reply #9 on: 22.06. 2012 09:37 »
Hi john,

Was questioning the clutch already and was thinking of a Norton Commando unit as they work very well.
I recon the 530 primary chain should easily take the power though, as a good quality one can take secondary drive power loads which are far higher. "in theory"   and my bike will certainly not be high mileage by any imagination!
I want to stay away from belt drives etc as it all feels too modern  ;)  *smile*  but we'll see, maybe I will.

Power wise I think if I work hard enough there is no reason it can't be up there somewhere.  It would be a pretty crap 750 that can't and if you see what horrors we have to work with and what power we get from the old crocks I work on daily. The BSA should be one of the easier engines. again "in theory"   We will see.  Unfortunately I also have my own rolling road so I can't bulshit!   (Well I can, but you get my drift!)

Thanks for your comments.
You reminded me about the clutch!

Julian

PS.
If I buy a Commando belt drive for my Commando, I can use the original setup on the BSA!!  Eurika!  *smile*
55 Ariel HS mk1,
58 BSA Super Rocket Scrambler special,
60 BSA Gold Star, Jim hunter desert racer,
64 Norton N15CS,
65 Triumph TR6 SS,
66 Triumph Bonneville,
71 AJS Stormer,
71 BSA Rocket 3,
71 Laverda 750SF,
71 Laverda/Egli 750SF, Race bike,
73 Norton Commando 850,
74 Moto Morini 3-1/2 Sport,
74 Bultaco Sherpa 350,
76 Beta Cross 50,
77 Moto Guzzi Le Mans Mk1,
80 Ducati 900 MHR,

Online chaterlea25

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Re: Spring retainers
« Reply #10 on: 23.06. 2012 21:59 »
Hi Julian,
The BSA primary chain is only a 1/2 x 5/16 (428 in new money)
I wonder would the commando triplex fit in the primary case??

It sounds as though your job would be the envy of a lot of people here ??
Tell us more??? Please
Since I took voluntary redundancy I now work on other peoples classics from home,
Having a reasonable workshop setup, machine tools etc is now a necessity

How come all the bikes I am asked to work on seem to have spent all their lives being totally neglected and abused  *eek* *eek* *eek* *eek*

Regards
John O R
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline duTch

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Re: Spring retainers
« Reply #11 on: 24.06. 2012 07:53 »
Hiya guys,
              I've thrown in my two,no five cents worth(that's our smallest now-cpi,gst,gtr-xu1,inflation) in other posts re the norton crutch, it's bigger a plunger clutch, but isn't so a a10 swingarm one bigger??
  Julian, if I didn't say it already and you get these barrels to work, and any chance of doing a run of them, I reckon you may have a line-up for some- I reckon I'll be interested if the cost is ok??

    Cheers, duTch
Started building in about 1977/8 a on average '52 A10 -built from bits 'n pieces never resto intended -maybe 'personalised'
Have a '74 850T Moto Guzzi since '92-best thing I ever bought doesn't need a kickstart 'cos it bump starts sooooooooo(mostly) easy
Australia

Offline JulianM

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Re: Spring retainers
« Reply #12 on: 25.06. 2012 08:09 »
Hi there,

My primary at the moment is a 530 or 5/8 x 3/8   I had no idea this was not standard so maybe someone modified it before I got it. (am rather ignorant I am afraid)  *smile*
The guy I bought it from had spent a lot of money buying all nice parts for it, but had messed up with abysmal assembly skills. Maybe he added the larger primary?   Interesting!   It does have an SRM ally clutch cover though.

Dutch,
I am all ears as to Commando clutch mods "or not"  
Any experiences I would like to hear please.

I will keep you all informed about the barrels,  I am sure more could be made but will not "put into production" as have too much other work, however I will by all means help anyone who wants one to have one once I manage to prototype and test it.

Best regards,
Julian

John,
My company is here, www.LMBracing.be
Have a look at my Avatar for my latest personal project.
Almost all handmade, inc the entire engine.
55 Ariel HS mk1,
58 BSA Super Rocket Scrambler special,
60 BSA Gold Star, Jim hunter desert racer,
64 Norton N15CS,
65 Triumph TR6 SS,
66 Triumph Bonneville,
71 AJS Stormer,
71 BSA Rocket 3,
71 Laverda 750SF,
71 Laverda/Egli 750SF, Race bike,
73 Norton Commando 850,
74 Moto Morini 3-1/2 Sport,
74 Bultaco Sherpa 350,
76 Beta Cross 50,
77 Moto Guzzi Le Mans Mk1,
80 Ducati 900 MHR,

Offline a10gf

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Re: Spring retainers
« Reply #13 on: 25.06. 2012 08:29 »
Quote
Almost all handmade, inc the entire engine.
wow, this is great, to say it mildly. Welcome to start a topic about in Chat and Diverse, I'd like to know more about that creation.

A10 GF '53 My A10 website
"Success only gets you a ticket to a much more difficult task"

Offline duTch

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Re: Spring retainers
« Reply #14 on: 25.06. 2012 08:41 »
Hi Julian,
            All I can recall about the diaphragm clutch as I think I posted elsewhere, is that the centre fits on the (plunger-oh yeah!)spline, but the chainwheel is too big a dia. to fit in the plunger case (easily?), also it's triplex but no big deal, may work to your advantage.There is a conversion that I also don't know much about.
  It's not where I am at the mo' but next time there I'll have another dig for it, but a lot of bits have gone 'walkabout' in my absence.
 Sorry can't be much help, but am sure someone can.
 Cheers duTch

  Ps yes that is a nice looking piece of machinery, but at the risk of going 'off topic' deferred comment
Started building in about 1977/8 a on average '52 A10 -built from bits 'n pieces never resto intended -maybe 'personalised'
Have a '74 850T Moto Guzzi since '92-best thing I ever bought doesn't need a kickstart 'cos it bump starts sooooooooo(mostly) easy
Australia