Author Topic: Clutch and shock absorber problems  (Read 9813 times)

Offline A10Boy

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Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
« Reply #15 on: 28.06. 2013 11:58 »
Quote
Do you mean the shim that is between the oil seal dist piece and the bearing? If so to remove it will mean destroying and replacing the oil seal?

Yes, thats what I'm suggesting, pull that 2 quid seal out and remove the shim. It it needs shimming put them in the right place as per the book.

Crank end float from memory should be 1.5 thou. You can use the search facility to see lots of info on this.
Regards

Andy

1958 Super Rocket
Plus
1974 Kawasaki Z1a
Yam XJR 1300

Offline sprint

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Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
« Reply #16 on: 28.06. 2013 18:37 »
Me thinks that your basket is off a single wich not having as much grunt got less plates.

If your stack ends up a little short ( sounds a bit naughty doesn't it ? ) then double up on the plain plate nearest the pressure plate.
When I were young & pennyles ( as distinct from being old & broke ) we would oft use a extra plain plate or two to pack out the clutch & get the last 0.0001" out of the friction plates.
Bike Beesa
trevor

Thanks Trevor

Putting just 4 friction plates in and doubling up on the plain plates at the bottom seems to work, won't find out whether it slips until I get it back together again?

I think that having two plain plates at the bottom is better with this basket as the plates do not sit on the bottom of the basket but on a lip on the bottom of the center. 

Online chaterlea25

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Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
« Reply #17 on: 28.06. 2013 22:09 »
Hi Andy,
I have just gone and taken a few measurements from a dismantled A10 in the shed!!!
Ok,
The clutch basket here is 35-36 mm deep so this is why the 5 plates wont fit in your bikes one,
Your centre plate carrier Is correct at 35 or so mm, its the same on a solid or shock type

I tried an adaptor on two different mainshafts, both had 15/16mm thread protruding from the face
I would have to go digging to locate some other adaptors to try

In your photos of the adaptor fitted onto the mainshaft, theres a large gap between the adaptor and sliding plate
so the scroll is barely engaging??????????? (problem here see farther down)!!)

Your measurements for the sandwich plate and gaskets seem ok (new gaskets I have are 0.65/0.7mm)

You indicate that the clutch adapter looks right so is it normal to have to shim the engine sprocket by as much as 3 mm?

NO  *ex* *ex* normally less than 0.5mm

So where does this all lead us to *????* *????* *????*

Unless your adaptor to end of gearbox shaft measurement is different by the amount of shims (3mm?) or the gearbox mainshaft is extending 3mm more than it should Due to incorrect gearbox assembly ???????
I measueed 62mm from the end of the sleevegear to the end of the shaft ( no guarantee on this measurement as that box is loosely assembled)
Or are the engine/gearbox plates assembled correctly ??

I would go and bounce that crank end nut off the head of the bloke who sold you the bike  *idea* *idea* *idea*
its not fit for anything else (another item to buy!)

After all that if theres no obvious answer I can only suggest shipping the bike to me for sorting !!

Regards
John



1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline sprint

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Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
« Reply #18 on: 29.06. 2013 11:09 »
Thanks for the replies John.

Yes I am feel fairly sick about all this. I don't think the guy was deliberately trying con anybody, but clearly does not really know the detail he should be working to.

I will contact him too see what he has to say?

Clearly the clutch basket is too shallow to take 5 friction plates, so I either find a deeper basket or see how I get on with just 4? At this stage I think it is prudent to see how  it works with 4 friction plates?

I have measure the thread length of the M/S protruding with the adapter fitted which is the same as you have measured at about 15 mm. That is with the M/S pulled hard up against the sleeve gear, in reality it will be pulled up against the inner case bearing and so will probably a couple of mm less that these measurements? 

The length of the M/S protruding beyond the end face of the adapter measures about 62.5 mm again the same as you have measured, so all that seems to be correct? So there does nor seem to be any logical reason as to why the adapter is so far away from the sliding plate? I guess it will result in fairly rapid oil loss from the chaincase? It also seems to fix the need for the 3 mm spacing to align the gearbox and chainwheel sprockets?

Any suggestions or is it just a case of having to live with what I have?

You have indicated bounding the crank end nut of the bonce of the guy I bought it from but is it actually wrong and if so what are you suggesting it be replaced with? What is the correct nut and will not what ever nut is used cause the same problem of rubbing on the inside of the case? Do I need to file down the outside edge of the existing nut?

Can't see where the G/B or plates have been fitted incorrectly, not sure if the photos give enough detail?

Online chaterlea25

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Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
« Reply #19 on: 29.06. 2013 20:16 »
HI Andy,
Any measurements of the gearbox shaft need to be done when the gearbox sprocket nut and the gearbox inner cover and mainshaft nut at the kickstarter end are done up
I cannot see from thew photos any obvious problems!!!
A solution might be to use a shaft adaptor from a single cylinder BSA which has the taper bored deeper???

The only other dimension I can think of that has not been measured is the inner boss of the engine shaft shock sleeve, and the spacer which sits against the main bearing
There have been suggestions here some time ago that there were different thickness sleeve boss shoulders
All the ones I have come across have been the same, I seem to remember "Mosin" in trouble with this

The missile (crank nut) is badly chewed up and it will be very difficult to tighten properly
To me the best replacement is the hex headed one from SRM
http://www.srmclassicbikes.com/catalogue/index.php?target=products&product_id=185

A clutch basket is available too,
http://www.srmclassicbikes.com/catalogue/index.php?target=products&product_id=167
knowing SRM it will not be the horrible cheapo one thats often on fleabay

I will go and check out the questions on your gearbox thread and hopfully answer over the weekend

Regards
John
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Online bsa-bill

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Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
« Reply #20 on: 29.06. 2013 20:49 »
Andy if it comes to spending money consider there are thinner plates available ( google something along the lines of "Triumph seven plate conversion)
Quite a popular mod at one time, I had similar problem and bought one, can't recall just what you get, think it's thinner friction and one extra plain or vice versa, anyway I couldn't get them all in but think I ended up with five or six and a good clutch
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Offline sprint

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Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
« Reply #21 on: 30.06. 2013 10:17 »
Thanks for the replies John

The measurements I took were with the mainshaft not bolted up at the the other end, so will be less by a couple or mm or so?

The oil seal dist piece measures about 10 mm, the sleeve approx 51 mm overall and the lip about 5 mm thick. How does that compare?

The only other dimension I can think of is from the front face of the crankcase, face where the 5 tapped holes are, to the machined face of the gearbox boss is about 25 mm, see photo. That should indicate if the G/B is not correctly located?

Does/would  the single cyl adapter directly fit the center I have or would that too have to be replaced?

The SRM looks to be a better idea by have concern that the allen screw, with my existing problem, will end up chewing up the inside of case as the existing nut does?

The SRM clutch basket also looks to be a possible solution. Would have to check it's depth. Would it also have the bottom plain plate sitting on the center lip?

Much appreciate your time and help, the same goes to everybody else who has replied and contributed, thanks.

Andy

Offline sprint

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Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
« Reply #22 on: 30.06. 2013 16:33 »
Andy if it comes to spending money consider there are thinner plates available ( google something along the lines of "Triumph seven plate conversion)
Quite a popular mod at one time, I had similar problem and bought one, can't recall just what you get, think it's thinner friction and one extra plain or vice versa, anyway I couldn't get them all in but think I ended up with five or six and a good clutch

Thanks for the suggestion Bill.

It is something to consider, it will end up cheaper to just replace the basket with one of the correct depth and use the existing plates as they are effectively new?

Sill have not decided if at this stage to just re-build it using 4 friction plates and see how it goes and then replace the basket if necessary? But with so many other issues to sort out that may be the simplest way at the moment? However, unless I can find out why the clutch assy is set so far away from the rear case I'm not really going far as the shock absorber nut is currently wearing a hole in the outer case.

Online chaterlea25

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Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
« Reply #23 on: 30.06. 2013 20:34 »
HI Andy,


""The oil seal dist piece measures about 10 mm, the sleeve approx 51 mm overall and the lip about 5 mm thick. How does that compare? ""

Distance piece measurement ok.
Attached are a couple of photos showing two cush drive sleeves and a good and two butchered crank nuts for comparison
It looks as though finally the discrepancy has been found  *idea* (At least one of????)
The sleeves in the photo have the shoulder just over 8mm thick, overall length about 50.5mm
This would have allowed the sprocket on your bike to be 3mm in too far,
the packing spacers were added to correct this BUT have moved the sleeve and nut outwards by the same amount,
probably why the nut is touching the outer casing??

When the assembly is together, a point to note is that without the spring in place it should NOT be possible for the sprocket to ride over the top of the shock absorber cams.

I think you need the proper cush drive sleeve as a start off point.

""The only other dimension I can think of is from the front face of the crankcase, face where the 5 tapped holes are, to the machined face of the gearbox boss is about 25 mm, see photo. That should indicate if the G/B is not correctly located?""

I dont have a bike in that state to take a measurement at this time, perhaps some one else has?

""Does/would  the single cyl adapter directly fit the center I have or would that too have to be replaced?""

Its a direct replacement its just thet it sits farther onto the mainshaft (probably not needed now ??)


""The SRM looks to be a better idea by have concern that the allen screw, with my existing problem, will end up chewing up the inside of case as the existing nut does?""

The allen screws are not used when the bike is assembled for running, they provide a mounting for SRM's timing disc

""The SRM clutch basket also looks to be a possible solution. Would have to check it's depth. Would it also have the bottom plain plate sitting on the center lip?
""

Normally Yes,
or
SRM's shaft adaptor has provision for a thrust washer,
http://www.srmclassicbikes.com/catalogue/index.php?target=products&product_id=158
if this is fitted the lip on the inner drum can be machined off
or enlarge the centre hole in one friction plate so as it will fit over the lip, so as the first friction plate will sit in the bottom of the Basket,

""Much appreciate your time and help, the same goes to everybody else who has replied and contributed, thanks.""

Many Thanks *smile*

Hopefully tomorrow I will get at the gearbox questions,
can you temporarily assemble the mianshaft and inner case + the sprocket and nut and measure as before

Regards
John

1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline sprint

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Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
« Reply #24 on: 01.07. 2013 11:05 »
Thanks John

What you have found clearly indicates as to why there is this 3 mm discrepancy.

With reference to attached photo the sleeve does not look to have been modified as you can see the undercut grove just above the lip so I wonder what bike it it is from?

I have also added a photo showing the sprocket and cam with the cam at what would be its max position and even with only the 4.8 mm lip there is no danger of it being able to slip past with a 8 mm lip even less so and there will be much more spring tension. However, I also have a shock absorber in the clutch center.

The question is why was this one ever fitted and are you sure that the 8 mm one is correct? It would seem that there are 3 type available? For the A series 55-62 it should be 42-69, 65-2539 for the B/M series 54-63 and 67-1134 for the A series 55? So is the one with the 8 mm lip the 42-69 version?

See what you mean about the crank nut, it has seen better days.

Don't want to have to get remove the lip on the center, so have to decide as to if I lust try it with 4 friction plates or replace the basket?

With the inner case fitted and the S/A assy without the 3 mm spacers the front face of the crank nut is approx 55.5 mm from the front face of the inner case. With the 3 mm spacers fitted between the sleeve and the oil seal dist piece it is approx 58.5 mm.

However, this does not correct the clutch adapter scroll be a fair way from the sliding plate?

Also I note that with the gaskets and steel collar fitted between the rear of the inner case and the crankcases the far bottom end of the case falls naturally on the center of the frame mounting brk? it means that with everything in place and bolted up the case is being forced behind the brk by 1 to 1.5 mm? Is this normal, I suspect not?

From what I have read and seen with the exploded dia's the inner case should be in front of the brk with an appropriate spacer between the rear of the case and the frame, or is the RGS frame different?

I have loosely re-assembled the mainshaft and inner G/B cover. The exposed thread from the end of the adapter remains at about 15 mm and the adapter goes into the sliding plate by about 4 mm, approx half the shouldered scroll depth?

Online chaterlea25

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Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
« Reply #25 on: 01.07. 2013 23:09 »
Hi Andy,
I believe your S/A sleeve is from a single cylinder bike, whatever it is its not "A"
My parts book shows adaptor as pt no, 42-3170 ????
I still suspect that your clutch adaptor is not correct ?????
could you get your hands on a known good one and try that?

When you replaced the inner primary case,  did you fit bolts front and back of the crank? so as the case is held evenly against the crankcase
In one of your photos a thread at the rear of the crankcase  looks somewhat dodgy??
Place the inner case on a flat surface and see is it distorted and that the inner face is parallel with the outer

"Normally" the inner primary 1 to 2mm or so inside the frame lug
The fitment of the inner is the same on all the swing arm "A's"
Go through the slide show on this link and it shows a lot of details
http://www.classiccyclesltd.com/build-bike-slideshow.html

I wanted to check the distance from the face of the sleeve gear to the end of the gearbox mainshaft when the box inner case and kickstart end nut and its relavent parts fitted

THis thread lists some if not all the RGS identifying points
http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php/forum/index.php?topic=1164.0


HTH
John


1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline sprint

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Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
« Reply #26 on: 02.07. 2013 11:22 »
Hi John

Thanks for you patience in helping me, this is becoming a bit of a can of worms for me as I am not familiar with the marque being more familiar with unit Triumphs.

Unfortunately the video link does not work.

I used the RGS thread link originally to help check that it was a gen RGS and all the points listed there tally with the bike which also has an original log book which also tallies.

I have invoices for a considerable amount of engine and other work that was done, but it seems the guy who re-built it did not pay enough attention to the finer but farly important detail.

With the M/S fitted and bolted up to the K/S ratchet assy and the inner case, less gasket, it measures just under 61 mm from the end face of the sleeve gear to the end of the M/S at the clutch end?

I did only use the two inner bolts to hold the case but it make no difference if the outer ones are used to clamp as well.

Just using the two paper gaskets give about 1 to 2 mm clearance between the case and the inner face of the brk, see photo. But with the steel spacer about 4 mm thick it means that the case is being pushed back by 1 to 2 mm. I guess there is an argument as to whether both gaskets can/should be used or if I can dispense with the steel plate, but then I would be loosing what I am hoping to gain by sorting out the sleeve bush?

Unfortunately all five of the  crankcase holes are in a bad way. Four of them are M8 and one M10 with all being pretty much having the threads formed by loctite, but currently do hold, just. Would like to get a few miles some to shake out all the potential problems, but clearly in the near future the engine need to be pulled apart and the threads repaired with a pillar drill.

I can fit either M8 or 5/16" helicoils but reluctant to be doing all 5 in situ?

Don't have access anybody with a 42-3170 to compare the adapter with, but it can only be the the point at which the taper starts or the length or position of the scrolled section that is in question?

The tapered section on mine starts approx 15 mm from the back face, scrolled end and the scrolled section is as about 12 mm long? The adapter is about 38 mm in overall width? How do these compare?

Andy


Offline sprint

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Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
« Reply #27 on: 04.07. 2013 13:23 »
Have spoken to Dragonfly who have an original S/A sleeve bush, 42-69, only one they have so not for sale.

They measured the lip at 5 mm, not 8 mm?

Adds even more confusion for me as mine measures approx 4.8 mm and so looks to be correct? So it is still possible that the clutch adapter, 42-3170, that I have is wrong, as originally suggested as it seems that there were a batch a few years ago the were out by 3 mm?

Are there any checks that can be done to establish if my current on is correct or not?

Online chaterlea25

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Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
« Reply #28 on: 04.07. 2013 22:27 »
Hi Andy,
Sorry I gave you the part number for the gearbox sleeve instead of the crank sleeve *red*

Draganfly are not without their failings  *????* *????* *????*
I have had several issues with crap pattern parts supplied by them, usual Was**l shite!!
They can have a very bad attitude if you phone up complaining

In my opinion there are better sources of supply, and more knowledgable people

The link I gave you for the RGS build slide show works ok for me ????

""Unfortunately all five of the  crankcase holes are in a bad way. Four of them are M8 and one M10 with all being pretty much having the threads formed by loctite, but currently do hold, just. Would like to get a few miles some to shake out all the potential problems, but clearly in the near future the engine need to be pulled apart and the threads repaired with a pillar drill.""

This shows the lack of skills, and or shortcuts taken by the ""bike builder""  *eek* *eek* *eek* *eek*
Only he knows the bodges that,  chances are will be found as soon as you try to do any milage  *sad2* *sad2* *sad2*
""Time serts"" are a far better proposition for repairing the crankcase threads, and a threaded sleeve for the M10 hole
Attached pics show a current engine in the workshop, timesert on the left and solid oversize insert on right

Get the correct sleeve, and this should sort out primary chain alignment
Once you can attach the inner case properly you should be able to sort out the scrolled sleeve in the sliding plate
Sort out one known problem at the time and work on from there

Regards
John



1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Online bsa-bill

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Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
« Reply #29 on: 04.07. 2013 22:37 »
Quote
They can have a very bad attitude if you phone up complaining

Yep sent me wrong rocker box studs, I phones not so much to complain but tell them the catalog was wrong, he got quite shirty
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco