Author Topic: Clutch and shock absorber problems  (Read 9838 times)

Offline sprint

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Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
« Reply #30 on: 05.07. 2013 12:23 »
Hi Andy,
Sorry I gave you the part number for the gearbox sleeve instead of the crank sleeve *red*

Draganfly are not without their failings  *????* *????* *????*
I have had several issues with crap pattern parts supplied by them, usual Was**l shite!!
They can have a very bad attitude if you phone up complaining

In my opinion there are better sources of supply, and more knowledgable people

The link I gave you for the RGS build slide show works ok for me ????

""Unfortunately all five of the  crankcase holes are in a bad way. Four of them are M8 and one M10 with all being pretty much having the threads formed by loctite, but currently do hold, just. Would like to get a few miles some to shake out all the potential problems, but clearly in the near future the engine need to be pulled apart and the threads repaired with a pillar drill.""

This shows the lack of skills, and or shortcuts taken by the ""bike builder""  *eek* *eek* *eek* *eek*
Only he knows the bodges that,  chances are will be found as soon as you try to do any milage  *sad2* *sad2* *sad2*
""Time serts"" are a far better proposition for repairing the crankcase threads, and a threaded sleeve for the M10 hole
Attached pics show a current engine in the workshop, timesert on the left and solid oversize insert on right

Get the correct sleeve, and this should sort out primary chain alignment
Once you can attach the inner case properly you should be able to sort out the scrolled sleeve in the sliding plate
Sort out one known problem at the time and work on from there

Regards
John



Thanks for the replies John

Not sure though if you are agreeing that I may have the correct S/A sleeve bush or not? At this moment I do not know if the lip should be 5 or 8 mm?

I guess the only way is to order the clutch adapter and if that sits back further on the mainshaft by about 3 mm then that is the solution? If it sits in the same position then it must be the S/A sleeve bush?

Are there any drawings of parts available anywhere?

The part that Dragonfly had, 42-69 was an original BSA part. It was the last one they have which they won't sell as the need it for a pattern should they ever decide to get some made.

Currently knowbody has any new ones so only S/H ones are available but at this moment in time I still do not know what I a looking for one with 5 or 8 mm lip?

Have gone back to the guy I bought it from and he can't be more apologetic about all the issues I have had. He handed all the engine work over to a company to do the head and crank etc but because he did not specifically request they check and do the  crank case holes it just seems to have been missed. He had made a generous refund to cover all the costs involved in sorting out all the issues I have had, so I am happy with that though I would prefer not to be doing any of the work.

I think I will just get the bike back together again and run it for a while and then look to sort out the threads and any other issues that come to light?

Any suggestions on what may be amiss with the gearbox L/S end play?


Time serts do look to be a better solution, but are horrendously expensive for a kit at over £100?

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Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
« Reply #31 on: 05.07. 2013 21:30 »
HI Andy,
The two sleeves I showed in the photos posted are from my current RGS and the  other A10 in for rebuild
I also had my own A10 SR apart a few weeks ago to lower the gearing a bit for the trip to the Swiss Alps
(another story I must post about) I know that I checked the sleeves and they all are 8mm

Have you tried Yeomans, C&D Autos, Vale Onslows or http://www.owensmotorcycles.co.uk/Index.html

I also noticed that some engine sprockets have a small lip on the inside where they fit on the sleeve others are flat????? I have two 24t engine sprockets one with and one without

Re the gearbox
I would assemble the cluster standing on the inner casing, look and see how well the fixed gear on the mainshaft (G)lines up with the layshaft free gear (H)

Remember that the sleeve gear is held away from the shoulder on the end of the mainshaft by the sprocket and nut
Its possible to measure this gap by trial assembly of the mainshaft and sleeve gear without sprocket and see how much the sleeve gear can move inwards
When you allow for this see how well the sleeve gear (A) and the layshaft gear (B) align

You can then decide where to add or get thicker thrust washers to correct the end float.

My reasoning for timeserts over wire inserts is that they cannot move after being put in place
wire inserts could move inwards and foul the crank  *eek*
I have had the time sert kit for a long time, I remember it cost about the same as having SRM do the inserts
£50 ?? at the time
I'm probably after going through 3 or 4 boxes of inserts since so it was money well spent
I'm sure you could find someone closer to you than me? where you can get the job done propery
There must be Forum members in your locality who will know where to go???

Come on Guys shout out the silence is deafening!!!!!


Regards
John



1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Online trevinoz

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Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
« Reply #32 on: 07.07. 2013 02:38 »
Re cush drive sleeve.
Possibly the one with the 5mm "lip" is a plunger type. The sprocket may have been ground out to fit.
S/A types are 8mm.
Plunger is 56mm overall & S/A 50mm.
Re clutch adaptor.
I have just measured one and the distance from the sleeve to the end of the mainshaft is 5/8" on two shafts.
Yours appears to have 14.5mm which is not quite 5/8".

Trev.

Offline sprint

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Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
« Reply #33 on: 07.07. 2013 11:01 »
Thanks for your reply and advice Trev

I have spoken to 3 dealers and in all cases they have advised the lip on the cush dive sleeve should be 5 mm? The one I have is approx 50 mm long, but has a 5 mm lip?

However, when looking at the 2 on the photo John posted, P6291768, they both have a slightly radius to the back face whereas mine, photo P1010677 does not? So it is possible that somebody has had the rear face machined at some time. Since there are no new ones available it is difficult to know if it should be 5 or 8 mm as I can't just simply buy to try? Who holds the BSA parts drawings?

As previously posted, there is a gap of about 4 to 5 mm between the rear face of the clutch adapter and the sliding plate, which I have been advised is too wide and that I may have an incorrect adapter? Apparently there was a batch that were wrongly made forcing the clutch out by about 3 mm, see photos P1010652, P1010649, P1010672 & P1010693.

The error would be that the tapper in the adapter has not been machined wide enough. (Tapper tool has not gone deep enough when machining the tapper in the adapter) The I/D of the tapper is approx 18.9 mm at the rear and approx 16.4/16.5 mm at the front, see photo? Anybody with a vernier who can check? 

If that is the case then with the correct adapter an 8 mm lip on the cush drive sleeve would mean that the gearbox sprocket would not be aligned with the clutch chainwheel sprocket and would be too far forward? 

At the moment I am still not sure if I have an incorrect clutch adapter or cush drive sleeve or both?

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Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
« Reply #34 on: 07.07. 2013 23:37 »
Andy,
            I think that your dealers are wrong. I have 6 S/A A10s in varying degrees of assembly and all have 8mm sleeves. All of the plunger ones I have are 5mm.
Regarding the clutch sleeve, I imported a couple of 6 spring sleeves a few years ago and they had the wrong taper and the clutch was way out of alignment with the engine sprocket.
Firstly I made a spacer to align the cush drive but that moved everything out too far and caused fouling on the outer cover.
I had them machined to the correct taper but only one of them ended up useable. An expensive exercise.
The machinist reckoned that the taper angle should be 3 degrees, 40" as that what he came up with for the mainshaft. A strange angle, indeed!
I suppose that he was correct as the one adapter fitted OK. The other had a poofteenth too much taken out and didn't fit where it should.
I think that firstly you need to get the clutch where it belongs then sort out the cush drive. It is relatively easy to make a spacer of the width needed.

Trev.

Offline sprint

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Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
« Reply #35 on: 08.07. 2013 11:34 »
Spoken to yet another dealer who has an original NOS and it also measures 5 mm with and overall length of around 50 mm?

These are for part No: 42-0069 which is what I believe is the correct part No?

Can somebody confirm that this is the correct part No for a 62/63 RGS/Super Rocket Cush Drive Sleeve?

There are two other part No's listed, 65-2539 & 67-1134 but it is my understanding that they are for 54-63 B/M series and 55 A series respectively?

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Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
« Reply #36 on: 08.07. 2013 21:52 »
HI Andy,
The late parts book shows the same 0069 number ??? I would forget about the number and ask for one with 8mm lip regardless of what ??number it has , (It wwont be the first time the parts book is incorrect)

I Would get the crank end sorted first, as  from our comparitive measurements I think the clutch will be about correct, 67-2056/57/58 are 5, 10 and 30 thou shims for fine adjustment of the primary alignment

If in doubt about the clutch adaptor, then buy the one from SRM as that is a known and guaranteed item
only sold by them, They also offer advice over the phone (after 4pm)

You have not told us whether you checked the inner primary for flattness /parallesism???

If the primary all aligns up and the inner case sliding plate is still too far away from the scroll its possible to adjust the plate inwards by replacing the felt seal with a thicker cork gasket
I find the felt useless and always fit a cork gasket, be careful not to distort the plate though!!!

HTH
John
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline muskrat

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Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
« Reply #37 on: 08.07. 2013 23:19 »
G'day John.
Just a question as I'm trying to picture it in my head (not renowned for correctness). To move the sliding plate closer to the scroll wouldn't you need longer shoulders on the bolts? Do you space it out with washers?
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS now A10CR,  '83 CB1100F, 88 FXST .
Australia
Muskys Plunger A7

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All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Offline muskrat

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Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
« Reply #39 on: 09.07. 2013 20:42 »
That's what I mean Bill, would need longer shoulders or packed with washers and use the long ones even without a FE Chain guard.
Just a thought, with the primary mis-alighnment and the inner cover hitting the frame. Could the frame or engine plates be bent?
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS now A10CR,  '83 CB1100F, 88 FXST .
Australia
Muskys Plunger A7

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Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
« Reply #40 on: 09.07. 2013 21:42 »
yep I agree, I would adjust the primary case somehow rather than the sliding plate
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

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Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
« Reply #41 on: 09.07. 2013 23:05 »
HI Bill and Musky,
Yes add washers to prevent sliding plate distortion,
Most times its lack of space between adaptor and plate !!! then add washers to bottom rear mount and remove one or more gaskets between inner case and crankcase
Its also possible to swell the adaptor by over tightening the clutch nut  *eek* over use of the air impact gun!!!
I have also seen one crack at the keyway so it went onto the shaft too far  *sad2*

I did think of the possibility of frame damage being the cause of Andy's problems but I did not want to drive him deeper into depression *problem*
I think its fairly unlikely though as there are defenite issues as already discussed

Cheers
John
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline sprint

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Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
« Reply #42 on: 10.07. 2013 12:42 »
That's what I mean Bill, would need longer shoulders or packed with washers and use the long ones even without a FE Chain guard.
Just a thought, with the primary mis-alighnment and the inner cover hitting the frame. Could the frame or engine plates be bent?
Cheers

There is always a possibility that something may be bent or not re-built correctly?

Not having done the build I have no way of knowing.

The inner case is out by 2 to 3 mm, not much and the simplest way is to have that amount machined off the edge of the case where it mounts the frame brk. That way if/when the discrepancy is found a slightly deeper spacer will not be a problem and there is still plenty of 'meat' on the case at the mounting point, though clearly I would like to know why it does not fit correctly?

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Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
« Reply #43 on: 10.07. 2013 13:17 »
Quote
though clearly I would like to know why is does not fit correctly?

Hi Andy I would suggest that 2 -3 mm might not mean it's incorrect given that when new the frames were welded  and the alloy cases cast ( and maybe not all from the same source) as far as I know there was no particular sized spacer for that gap, my flash has no washers in there at all so quite possible the tolerance went both ways so I'd not be too put out at having to grind a bit off as you say.

Also an interesting point raised by John, I used a baler (agricultural) for many years the knotters on such have a bill hook worm held on a taper, trouble trouble trouble mechanics used to berate us for over tightening them as they split on the taper (impossible to see the crack unless with a magnifying glass) but unless tight they just slipped and timing went off
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Offline sprint

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Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
« Reply #44 on: 10.07. 2013 18:13 »
Can anybody advise if this clutch adapter with thrust washer and chainwheel that are used on the pre-unit Triumphs will also fit the BSA Super Rocket mainshaft which look to be the same as SRM supply?