Author Topic: Zinc – Not Just For Sunburn.  (Read 1257 times)

Online muskrat

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Zinc – Not Just For Sunburn.
« on: 19.10. 2013 21:11 »
G’day all. A forum member asked me about the decreasing level of zinc/phosphate (ZDDP, Zinc dialyldithiophosphate) in modern oil. I am not a chemist or engineer  so did a bit of research on the subject.
Most (not all) tell us of the benefit of ZDDP to reduce wear on the cam/follower/tappet area in particular and it’s anti corrosive properties. Over the last decade or so the level of ZDDP has been reduced from around 0.14% to 0.08% and looks like being pushed even lower by the greenies. (Don’t start me on that subject) With the current API rating of oil at SM we would have to go back to a SJ to get our ZDDP levels to what we need. Try finding any SJ oil on the shelf anywhere.
So what do we do? There are oils out there with amounts of ZDDP more suited to our motors, and most would say “not for road use” and are racing oils. Valvoline VR1 at 0.13%, Brad Penn Grade 1 oil at 0.12%, Mobil 1 V Twin (synthetic 20/50) at 0.16%. Now my local shops don’t have any of these and I’d have to order a box full to get them, at a premium price.
The other option is a ZDDP additive. There are a few out there, ZDDPlus at a rate of 4oz:160oz, ZBoost at a rate of 1oz:160oz gives a ZDDP level of 0.15 – 0.17% when added to my favourite no name cheap supermarket oil.
All this does not eliminate the need to change your oil frequently. I do my bikes at about 1000 miles and cars at 5000, and use add on filters to the classic bikes. Most here know I swear by a product called Nulon which is a PTFE (Polytetrafluoroethylene)  sort of Teflon additive. I have been using in all my motors since the 80’s with no cam/follower problems at all.
Here are a few links for you to read and make your own decisions.
Cheers
http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/racing-oil/
http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2012/10/18/tech-101-zinc-in-oil-and-its-effects-on-older-engines/
http://www.penngrade1.com/Zinc.aspx
http://www.zddplus.com/
http://www.motorheadoil.com/
http://www.nulon.com.au/products/Engine_Treatments/#.UmLk91NR620
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS now A10CR,  '83 CB1100F, 88 FXST .
Australia
Muskys Plunger A7

Online bsa-bill

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Re: Zinc – Not Just For Sunburn.
« Reply #1 on: 19.10. 2013 21:46 »
Don't know if you have Halfords down under Muskrat but they do sell a range of oils for vehicles of varying ages, I have not checked their "engine oil for older vehicles" for Zinc content but presumed it might have levels to protect cams (must check if memory allows).
However surely even modern engines will have sliding surfaces that would require a suitable lubricant, wonder if they use a different additive to replace the zinc.

I'm not averse to adding something to the oil in my bikes, Nulon here is hand cream ?? but I'm sure Wynn's or someone will make similar
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Online Triton Thrasher

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Re: Zinc – Not Just For Sunburn.
« Reply #2 on: 19.10. 2013 21:52 »
Anyone here actually suffered from the notorious internet zinc problem?

Online muskrat

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Re: Zinc – Not Just For Sunburn.
« Reply #3 on: 19.10. 2013 22:47 »
G'day Bill, modern motors seem to either have softer valve springs or roller followers. Hydraulic lifters may help as well.
G'day TT, I can understand your scepticism. Like I said I've always used the Nulon and never suffered the cam/follower wear that is suggested.
We havn't had a juicy oil thread for a while  *fight*.
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS now A10CR,  '83 CB1100F, 88 FXST .
Australia
Muskys Plunger A7

Offline fringedweller

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Re: Zinc – Not Just For Sunburn.
« Reply #4 on: 19.10. 2013 22:57 »
I've been using Penrite HPR30, which the blurb states has full zinc @1600ppm, in all my bikes for years. That's moderns to old Brit bikes.
Seems to do the job, not overly expensive, and is readily available, even out here where the crows fly backwards.
Don

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Re: Zinc – Not Just For Sunburn.
« Reply #5 on: 19.10. 2013 23:10 »
G'day Don. Does it affect the modern wet clutches, Nulon will. My honda clutch slipped like s4it off a shovel when I picked up the wrong bottle *pull hair out*.
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS now A10CR,  '83 CB1100F, 88 FXST .
Australia
Muskys Plunger A7

Offline fringedweller

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Re: Zinc – Not Just For Sunburn.
« Reply #6 on: 19.10. 2013 23:23 »
Musky, Modern meaning Guzzi and Buell, so dry clutch and seperate clutch. Forgot there are other makes out there.

Online Brian

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Re: Zinc – Not Just For Sunburn.
« Reply #7 on: 19.10. 2013 23:29 »
I also use Penrite HPR 30 in all my bikes.

It is suitable for wet clutches.

Its zinc content is rated in PPM (Parts Per Million), its rated at 1600ppm, I'm not sure how that co-relates to %.

I've been using it in my Guzzi since new and its about to tick over the 100,000 and shows no sign of any wear whatsoever so the Penrite cant be too bad.

I also change the oil in my old bikes every 1,000 miles and have return line filters in both the A10's.


Online orabanda

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Re: Zinc – Not Just For Sunburn.
« Reply #8 on: 20.10. 2013 01:55 »
i also user the Penrite oils, for the same reasons that Musky and Brian and others have mentioned.

HPR30, or Enduro.

I also suggest you don't use (any brand) oil that is older than 2 years.

After that period it will change (degrade), as the chemical composition changes, and the additives deplete / change.

This issue was confirmed for me by an industrial chemist from BP.

Therefore don't keep on hand, any more than you would usein say 12 - 18 months, and always use the oldest stock first.

And, let someone else bid on the 10 year old can of oil on Ebay!

Richard.

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Re: Zinc – Not Just For Sunburn.
« Reply #9 on: 20.10. 2013 04:11 »
Brian, 1600ppm = 0.16% so good for us. Will give it a try in the rHonda whore next change. Australian brand so must be good.
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS now A10CR,  '83 CB1100F, 88 FXST .
Australia
Muskys Plunger A7

Offline morris

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Re: Zinc – Not Just For Sunburn.
« Reply #10 on: 20.10. 2013 12:06 »
Australian brand so must be good.
Cheers

It is good! They also have great support. Any enquiry is answered in no time. For me, nothing but...

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/
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Online bsa-bill

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Re: Zinc – Not Just For Sunburn.
« Reply #11 on: 20.10. 2013 17:00 »
good point Richard re old oil although not one to spring immediately to mind

When I worked a workmate pointed out to our manager a difference in the colour of oil in a gallon measure (brown colour at the bottom)

"nah that's just settlement it'll be fine"   one turbo'd six cylinder diesel engine later and a large hole in the farm accounts we did ask why no claim against the oil company (never answered)

All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Offline duTch

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Re: Zinc – Not Just For Sunburn.
« Reply #12 on: 21.10. 2013 08:15 »

  I've also been running Penrite in my Guzzi since buying it '92, was suggested by a mate who was the workshop foreman at the local council, (I think he had a no..on) rebuilt it in ~'95/6? even though the day before I started the job did a 200+mile (~400Km) ride no dramas, just had the job slated in for a 'checkup'.
  Usually use 30, but sometimes if it's real hot for a bit I use 50 don't notice any difference, but I'm no expert- 'cept I can tell it leaks some...!(R.main seal)
Also use it my diesel van, and the Fourby
 Haven't had any oil related issues...other than leaks...!... *beer* (is it friday?- feels like it)
Started building in about 1977/8 a on average '52 A10 -built from bits 'n pieces never resto intended -maybe 'personalised'
Have a '74 850T Moto Guzzi since '92-best thing I ever bought doesn't need a kickstart 'cos it bump starts sooooooooo(mostly) easy
Australia

Online Brian

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Re: Zinc – Not Just For Sunburn.
« Reply #13 on: 21.10. 2013 09:20 »
Way off topic so I will be as brief as possible.

Dutch, are you sure its engine oil leaking out your Guzzi and not gearbox oil ? If you fill a Guzzi's gearbox up to the level plug some oil will run out the bottom of the "bell housing" making it look like the rear main is leaking.

Offline duTch

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Re: Zinc – Not Just For Sunburn.
« Reply #14 on: 21.10. 2013 15:37 »

 .. *eek*...the gear box takes..?..oil...?
 nah just jokin'
Yeah Brian, fairly sure it's engine oil as it needs a top up more often than the g'box, but will take a sniff next time out and see fer sure. When I had it apart, I saw the crank had a bit of a 'blemish', but figured it'd be ok, but that was nearly 20 yrs ago...!! but still open to ideas, the clutch is starting to get a bit slippy, so may need to have a look soon.
  thanks
Started building in about 1977/8 a on average '52 A10 -built from bits 'n pieces never resto intended -maybe 'personalised'
Have a '74 850T Moto Guzzi since '92-best thing I ever bought doesn't need a kickstart 'cos it bump starts sooooooooo(mostly) easy
Australia