Author Topic: 63 RGS Valve guide tappet problem?  (Read 913 times)

Offline sprint

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63 RGS Valve guide tappet problem?
« on: 17.05. 2014 14:25 »
The RGS head was very tappety since I got it last year. It had had new seats, guides, valves exc fitted but decided to remove the head for a look.

The nearside inlet valve guide fell out!!!!!!!!!!!!

So the head was sent back to the firm that did the original work. Looks like they had to machine out and fit a sleeve and then re-machine to take a new guide as the bore was well worn where it had been fretting, hence the noise as the guide was jumping up and down all the time.

Got the head back and fitted it but it looks like they have not got the valve guide angle right as the tappet is towards the edge of the top of the valve instead of the center, see attached photos. Also attached is the offside for comparison.

Question is can it be left or has it got to be re-done?

Pressing where it is it is likely to promote much more rapid guide wear as it is imposing much more side thrust? However, I am loathed to have to sent it back again as god knows what state the head is going to be left in if it has to be machined again? Or would a 'mushroom' type of adjuster perhaps alleviate the problem? 


Online bsa-bill

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Re: 63 RGS Valve guide tappet problem?
« Reply #1 on: 17.05. 2014 14:38 »
Do you need to check the tappet before thinking about a remedy?
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Offline sprint

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Re: 63 RGS Valve guide tappet problem?
« Reply #2 on: 17.05. 2014 15:48 »
Do you need to check the tappet before thinking about a remedy?

Nothing wrong with the tappet, was OK before new guide fitted.

Online bsa-bill

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Re: 63 RGS Valve guide tappet problem?
« Reply #3 on: 17.05. 2014 15:53 »
Quote
Nothing wrong with the tappet, was OK before new guide fitted.

exactly - it has been running with a loose guide though, therefore a valve whose top is not always in the same place albeit not a thousand miles from where it should be but maybe enough
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Offline sprint

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Re: 63 RGS Valve guide tappet problem?
« Reply #4 on: 17.05. 2014 20:49 »
All the other tappets line up centrally and concentric with the top of the valve stems, so there it no reason to believe that this one was any different, though I accept it may not have done so.

But since I checked the valve clearances when I first got the bike before it had done ANY miles the valve guide should not have displaced at that time so alignment should have been OK?

So the question still remains is the current relationship between the tappet and the top of the valve stem OK or does either the valve guide or the tappet (which can only be replaced with another one as there no adjustment available) need to changed/modified so that they are central and concentric to one another?


Online trevinoz

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Re: 63 RGS Valve guide tappet problem?
« Reply #5 on: 18.05. 2014 02:07 »
My two bob's worth.
                                             I think that they have inserted the guide at the wrong angle and have cut the seats to suit.
Probably need a GOOD machinist to set up the head and bore the guide hole correctly and make an oversize guide to fit. Would most likely need a new seat as well.
I think that you need to have a serious conversation with the mob who did this bit of butchery.

Trev.

Offline sprint

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Re: 63 RGS Valve guide tappet problem?
« Reply #6 on: 18.05. 2014 09:29 »
My two bob's worth.
                                             I think that they have inserted the guide at the wrong angle and have cut the seats to suit.
Probably need a GOOD machinist to set up the head and bore the guide hole correctly and make an oversize guide to fit. Would most likely need a new seat as well.
I think that you need to have a serious conversation with the mob who did this bit of butchery.

Trev.

Very much my own feelings, but it is a complicated situation with the 'mob' who have done this, Service Exchange Parts, Kegworth.

They did the original work for the person I bought the bike from, a very decent person. He got in touch with them when I discovered the problem and arranged for me to sent the head back for repair only to have it returned in the current situation.

Further investigation shows that they look to have machined and fitted a sleeve and welded it in, see attached, which has been left in a bad state. They have not cleaned the face up, which is left with  a raised rim of weld such that the bottom valve spring washer does not sit on the face but tilted on the rib. They have also fitted a used guide which is different from all others they have fitted of unknown size, std, oversize?

The seats are supposed to have already be change, original work, thought I'm not convinced it/they have been?

All in I am not at all impressed and very reluctant to send it back to them, but since I did not originally engage them I am not in a position to make any direct demands on them only the guy I bought it from.

Online Brian

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Re: 63 RGS Valve guide tappet problem?
« Reply #7 on: 18.05. 2014 10:10 »
Unfortunately there is no nice way to explain this, they have made a real botch up of what would have been a simple job.

That head is going to need some serious repair by someone who knows what they are doing, and that someone might be hard to find. Considering the quality of what they have done I would probably remove the welded in insert and start again. The hole will need to be bored square and another insert fitted and welded both ends, then the insert bored to take the guide. The seat will have had too much metal removed by now so will also need replacing.

I'm in Australia so cant recommend anyone but I'm sure some of the UK members can. It needs to be done by someone who is very competent plus who knows old bikes.

Do not give it to anyone unless they come very highlyrecommended and they have a proven track record.

Offline muskrat

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Re: 63 RGS Valve guide tappet problem?
« Reply #8 on: 18.05. 2014 12:24 »
I recall Duncan R on the forum mentioned CHS  http://cylinderheadshop.com/
MUST be rectified.
Cheers
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Online chaterlea25

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Re: 63 RGS Valve guide tappet problem?
« Reply #9 on: 18.05. 2014 13:45 »
Hi All,
Sprint, You certainly have had more than your share of issues with this RGS  *sad2*

About 15 years ago I sent a head to the cylinder head shop which had a similar problem
At the time it was suggested to weld up the worn  guide hole completely and then machine to suit a standard guide. However the repair they did was to make a very oversize guide and bore the guide hole true to the seat and paralell to the corrisponding cylinders guide
This has been a sound repair to date

I dont believe fitting a sleeve is a good idea, its another thermal barrier between guide and head, welding around the top  of the sleeve is questionable???
I would opt to fill the guide hole completely with weld and then remachine to standard

I can only recommend SRM to effect a repair on the head

HTH
John
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline sprint

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Re: 63 RGS Valve guide tappet problem?
« Reply #10 on: 18.05. 2014 19:55 »
Hi John

Yes I do seem to have suffered more than my fair share of problems with the bike.

You refer to a repair that was done by the Cylinder Head Shop, which seems to have lasted and which you are happy with?

I assume that it is the same CHS that is owned by Les Patterson? If so they are now only a few miles away from me in Hastings and they were somebody I was thinking of contacting to see what they would suggest? They did the seats and uprated guides and valves on my Triumph T120 some years ago and I have had no problems, so from my own experience I have no issues with them though clearly this a different situation and repair work that is required.

I don't really fancy an very oversize guide as it always causes problems either for yourself or somebody else further down the road. So welding may be the best option, but since a sleeve appears to have been fitted (they may well have welded the hole and re-machined, not able to tell from looking at the head) which will have to be machined out it is going to be a large hole to fill and i have concerns with warping or cracking?

However, you then go on to say that you would only recommend SRM to undertake head work?

Online chaterlea25

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Re: 63 RGS Valve guide tappet problem?
« Reply #11 on: 18.05. 2014 21:11 »
Hi Sprint,
The CHS had given me a quote for welding and machining, then did an alternative (cheaper repair) however the price did not reduce, and I only saw the repair when the head arrived to me
That said it has been ok,
I like their "Nucleus" valves and believe they add to my engines performance

I have had SRM do various repairs since then and cannot fault the alloy welding and other work they have done

HTH
John
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline sprint

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Re: 63 RGS Valve guide tappet problem?
« Reply #12 on: 19.05. 2014 13:10 »
Are the valve angles the same for both the inlet and exhaust? Just wondering if they took the angle from the exhaust rather than the other inlet as they claim that it was bored within 0.002"?

CHS are moving again and closed for business till the end of Sept.

Offline Duncan R

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Re: 63 RGS Valve guide tappet problem?
« Reply #13 on: 19.05. 2014 16:14 »
Hi Sprint,

I need to have work done on mine and The Cylinder Head Shop has been reccomended, I have not had anything done yet but the CHS has a good reputation as does SRM. I had some work done by Derrick at T & L Engineering in Bedfordshire and was very impressed with the quality and the price.Worth checking their website and speaking to Derrick.

I need similar work carried out but will leave it till the winter now.

Good Luck
Anglo - Indian A7SS (Actually is a 650)
Kawasaki ZZR 1100
BMW R80GS
BMW R1100GS