Author Topic: No spark  (Read 2232 times)

Offline Marqs1979

  • A's Best Friend
  • ***
  • Join Date: Sep 2013
  • Posts: 109
  • Karma: 0
No spark
« on: 06.03. 2015 14:01 »
For about 1 year ago I renovated my k2f magnet with the new breaker new bearings and a EasyCAP capacitor. Now even the engine are renovated but now when I want to try to start i have no spark.Have not had time to investigate as much but I had spark after the renovation. Can I trust the new EasyCAP capacitor do you think? Is Easycap good quality ?

Online Triton Thrasher

  • Scotland
  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Feb 2009
  • Posts: 1499
  • Karma: 20
Re: No spark
« Reply #1 on: 06.03. 2015 14:52 »
Try new plugs.

Is the magneto armature turning, when the engine turns?

Are the points clean and opening and shutting?

Is the earth brush or brushes free to move?

Are the pickups and slip ring clean and dry?

The test for the condenser is probably to try another one, unless it's internally short circuited.

Online bsa-bill

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2006
  • Posts: 5441
  • Karma: 62
Re: No spark
« Reply #2 on: 06.03. 2015 15:25 »
Had the same problem with my RGF, so many variables these days with today's fuel being one , plugs wet so easily.
If TT's suggestions all draw a blank then the one thing that I did not try and has been mentioned on this forum by the Maggie guys is the safety screws, I should have tried a thicker washer under them, if they are too close the spark will decided they are a quicker / easier journey than fighting through carbon brushes and spark plug gap, someday when time allows I'll put the maggie back on with another fibre washer under the screws and see what happens
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Offline duTch

  • Ricketty Rocketty Golden Flashback
  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2011
  • Posts: 4540
  • Karma: 41
Re: No spark
« Reply #3 on: 06.03. 2015 22:27 »

Are you using a button cutout, or a switch...?  Either way disconnect it and try- but keep it handy for easy reconnect...!!!
Started building in about 1977/8 a on average '52 A10 -built from bits 'n pieces never resto intended -maybe 'personalised'
Have a '74 850T Moto Guzzi since '92-best thing I ever bought doesn't need a kickstart 'cos it bump starts sooooooooo(mostly) easy
Australia

Offline beezermacc

  • Resident Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2011
  • Posts: 960
  • Karma: 38
  • Not for the purist!
    • Priory Magnetos Ltd.
Re: No spark
« Reply #4 on: 07.03. 2015 08:47 »
Whilst the Easycap is a good idea I find that a significant number of owners do not find the Easycap as easy to fit as they thought. Removing the old capacitor from the circuit requires care, adequate soldering skills, and a little bit of knowledge so that the insulation of terminals is achieved without any danger of the live side coming into contact with the armature. I suspect something may have gone wrong with the Easycap process, probably not the Easycap itself, but something to do with the points assembly or the soldered connections. Unfortunately, as you will have removed the old capacitor, you are not left with many options. I would normally advise people to fit another complete set of points (begged or borrowed) and see if that cures it. In your case you can't do that without losing the capacitor. However, there is a dodge you can try... Fit a completely different set of points and fit an outboard capacitor (old Lucas car distributor type) between the kill connection on the mag and the mag body. Worth a try. If it works you know your problem is with the points.
Priory Magnetos Ltd - A10 spares, magneto and dynamo refurbs. www.priorymagnetos.co.uk

Online groily

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2007
  • Posts: 1074
  • Karma: 18
    • www.brightsparkmagnetos.com
Re: No spark
« Reply #5 on: 07.03. 2015 15:02 »
Beezermacc is quite right.

We say on our site that Initial fitment does, however, involve disabling or removing the old condenser/capacitor. This is a delicate but not particularly difficult task, which we explain in very great detail.
Those were my words back when we started, and I stand by them. It IS delicate, but for people who happily tear gearboxes apart and put engines together and make all sorts of parts for themselves etc etc, I didn't and still don't think the hands-on owner should find it too difficult.
But, because it certainly isn't easy, we go to what some people think are ridiculous lengths to explain what has to be done, to the extent of teaching grannies to suck eggs.

The K2F is the easiest common armature to attack, provided the coil is good of course, because it is possible to disable the old condenser simply by snipping and insulating the low tension live + "link" wire at the condenser end. They are usually accessible, except in some cases where the wires are very short (on rewinds often) and the condenser connections for a modern replacement are buried in resin that is hard to dig out without breaking anything.

Most people who have wanted to do it have done it just fine, including many people on this forum.
The most difficult EasyCap application is for the low inertia steel cb assembly, for which the EasyCap board is a dainty bit of kit designed for two very small capacitors on its wings. The biggest problem owners encounter is the length of the spring blade tail screw on these steel cb assemblies - It mustn't be long enough to touch the 'wrong' metallised side of the circuit board. Cutting/filing down a 6BA screw is a painful job as well - my workshop floor would reveal a few of the darn things that got away.
The second most common problem (not limited to EasyCap installation either!) is fitting the cb with the spring blade kissing the camring - which is fatal on the steel assembly owing to the fact the moving point is 'low tension live'. It's 'earth' on the earlier brass sort, so a kiss won't matter. It will just wear out the spring until it might even break.

It would be ridiculous to claim that anything like this won't ever fail, because of course one will, sometime or another.
However, of over 5000 sold we have had 3 or maybe 4 back. One blew on Day 1 (manufacturing defect, or us getting too enthusiastic with the soldering iron); a second didn't work on the customer machine (magdyno) when another one he fitted did - but I use the first one as a test piece often and it does work fine; and a third had been somewhat manhandled. They're all guaranteed 2 years and I'll always send one out to anyone with doubts, or who wants to test by simple substitution.

I carry a spare on a keyring, but in an aggregate 50K miles probably, on my 'mule' A10 and 2 AMC twins over 4 years, all weathers, I haven't had a problem. I take them off regularly to test them, to see that the capacitance remains within the 10% limit of spec, and that they remain leak-proof to 2 Giga Ohms at 500v. They always have. I admittedly have the advantage that I know the rest of each magneto on which they are fitted is in tip-top shape, but even so, they have already done better than 2 reconditioned armatures that were on 2 of the machines, whose condensers broke down at under 10,000 miles. The motivation for our product was the premature failure of a rebuilt mag on my A, and of the similarly-rebuilt magneto on one of the late KenF's bikes: we reckoned that if things HAD to go wrong, then let them please go wrong in a place you can get at them.  The premature failures both involved the use of one particular brand of commonly-used condenser. We can't, and I wouldn't, condemn anything out of hand - but I know what I avoid, and I have dug out many dozens of them which have suffered the fate of my A and KenF's Rapide.

The problem is that you don't always  know what you are getting, as there are very few trade winders out there, and many suppliers use the same few sources' choice of buried condenser. Nor can 99% of people be expected to be able to tell the differences - until after they break down, in a howling gale and pissing rain, as I did.

Anyone with a cheapish high voltage leak tester can test an EasyCap, and anyone with a simple multimeter with a capacitance scale can test its capacitance. 150nF for the brass cb, 136nF for the steel. Whenever installing one, I ALWAYS hold the cb open on the bench after fitting the board, and measure from backplate to live point - that should show the capacitance. If it just shows 'ohms' and probably squeals at you, then the fitment has gone wrong. This is not a game you can easily play with a buried item not disconnectable from the low tension winding.

Very happy to discuss any particular problems via PM or email, rather than behave like a pernicious vendor here!

Cheers, Bill (with my Brightspark hat on)

Bill

Offline Marqs1979

  • A's Best Friend
  • ***
  • Join Date: Sep 2013
  • Posts: 109
  • Karma: 0
Re: No spark
« Reply #6 on: 07.03. 2015 16:36 »
BSA bill is the one who was right. :-)
I'm a little worried about the points.The shaft as the movable part sits on is pretty worn and the breaker wobbles a bit too much sideways.is there any good solution to that problem? maybe i should try to drill the hole in the points and make a bush ???
I must say I'm very impressed by the EasyCAP. Very clever solution and with the installation instructions provided it is in my eyes very easy to install:-)but of course you should be a bit handy.

Online Triton Thrasher

  • Scotland
  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Feb 2009
  • Posts: 1499
  • Karma: 20
Re: No spark
« Reply #7 on: 07.03. 2015 17:09 »

I'm a little worried about the points.The shaft as the movable part sits on is pretty worn and the breaker wobbles a bit too much sideways.is there any good solution to that problem? maybe i should try to drill the hole in the points and make a bush ???

That's not good. The timing can do funny things at road speed, if the moving point is loose.

If the pivot pin is worn, I wouldn't expect it to still be round, so a bush might not work. Replace the pin, or buy a new points plate. Only the steel kind is commonly available now.

Online groily

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2007
  • Posts: 1074
  • Karma: 18
    • www.brightsparkmagnetos.com
Re: No spark
« Reply #8 on: 07.03. 2015 17:30 »
Glad to hear your installation wasn't too bad - that's a relief!

The safety screw gaps should be 6.5 to 7.5mm sayeth Lucas. You can test with drill shanks down the pick-up hole - well, that's what I do anyway.  Then it's washers, or grind the pointy ends. Or find some longer screws sometimes and round off the noses.

Does sound as if you need to make/get a new points pivot post though. You are right to worry a bit because the effect of slop on there can be pretty bad. Often, there will be a haphazard series of not-very-good sparks when the points open, rather than a nice fat one, and it can mess up the firing interval between cylinders and the timing. (As TT just said.)

Sometimes a new set of points may do it (for a while anyway, the post won't be round (as TT also just said)), most times there is nothing for it but to bite the bullet and make/buy & fit a new pivot - or find a better cb backplate. Pivot kits were being sold a while back, not sure if they are now - Beezermacc may have some even!

Cheers, Bill
Bill

Online Triton Thrasher

  • Scotland
  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Feb 2009
  • Posts: 1499
  • Karma: 20
Re: No spark
« Reply #9 on: 07.03. 2015 18:22 »
It's not that I'm clever or anything- it's just that it happened to me.

I've had the pivot pin come loose in a couple of steel backplates too.

Offline Marqs1979

  • A's Best Friend
  • ***
  • Join Date: Sep 2013
  • Posts: 109
  • Karma: 0
Re: No spark
« Reply #10 on: 07.03. 2015 18:59 »

Online groily

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2007
  • Posts: 1074
  • Karma: 18
    • www.brightsparkmagnetos.com
Re: No spark
« Reply #11 on: 07.03. 2015 19:56 »
It will - part number C04 for low inertia steel assembly either rotation, C01 for anti-clockwise brass. See http://www.brightsparkmagnetos.com/easycap/index.htm
Bill
Bill

Online groily

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2007
  • Posts: 1074
  • Karma: 18
    • www.brightsparkmagnetos.com
Re: No spark
« Reply #12 on: 07.03. 2015 19:58 »
Just enlarged the pic, that's a later assembly of the low inertia sort, so part is C04. Sorry - Specsavers again! Bill
Bill

Offline Marqs1979

  • A's Best Friend
  • ***
  • Join Date: Sep 2013
  • Posts: 109
  • Karma: 0
Re: No spark
« Reply #13 on: 08.03. 2015 16:53 »


Replaces the one Dragonfly my plate? Does it fit?

But I will try changing the pin. Can anyone say what it should have in diameter? Mine is between 3.6 to 3.8 mm and the hole in the breakers is 4 mm (sorry that I write in millimeters, I do not understand better)

Can i make a new pin in stainless steel do you think? Or should it be brass or bronze?


Online groily

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2007
  • Posts: 1074
  • Karma: 18
    • www.brightsparkmagnetos.com
Re: No spark
« Reply #14 on: 08.03. 2015 18:05 »
Straight swap, yes, the Draganfly one is the later version, for both clockwise and anti-clockwise drive mags.
There are various dimensions to the pivot post, and they aren't exactly the same for the brass and steel assemblies. There should also be a relieved section for a bit of lube, and the base bit has to fit the backplate snugly. I find that when fitting pattern points on brass cb assemblies the hole in the new moving one often has to be lightly reamed out anyway, so if making something, I'd start with the points that are to be fitted and use drill shanks from a set that goes up in 0.1mm increments to get a good measurement on what has been supplied. The original brass type assembly had a post in copper, but anything on your list would do. The thing with stainless, or most of it, is you can't solder it. A bit of silver steel works very well too. Your old one certainly looks well-used and abused! Cheers, Bill
Bill