Author Topic: Engine done about 1800 miles since rebuild  (Read 4477 times)

Offline bikerboy

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Re: Engine done about 1800 miles since rebuild
« Reply #45 on: 10.06. 2016 03:14 »
The oil pipes are not reversed they are labelled and it has been circulating perfectly.

At the moment I have an external anti sumping valve fitted for test purposes in case it was the check valve

Online Ted_Flash

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Re: Engine done about 1800 miles since rebuild
« Reply #46 on: 10.06. 2016 06:47 »
Similar happened to me with an A65, the previous owner had used lots of silicone in the engine and bits had collected on the sump filter, so oil was slow in getting through to the pump pickup.  Is your gauze clear?
Ted Wilkinson, Ramsbottom, Lancashire
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Re: Engine done about 1800 miles since rebuild
« Reply #47 on: 10.06. 2016 08:57 »
As above, piston and bore condition does not fill the crankcase with oil.

Wet sumping (after starting a ride with an empty sump) is a failure to pump oil out of the sump.

Offline jjbsa

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Re: Engine done about 1800 miles since rebuild
« Reply #48 on: 10.06. 2016 09:20 »
Bikerboy, I know it looks like you've cured the oil-use problem and that you've now got an oil slinging problem (all part of the fun of Brit bike custodianship  *smiley4*), but as it looks like the TMS pistons were involved in the first problem, have you had a close look at them to try and find a cause.  I'd be interested to know what the up and down play on the rings is, and what the oil holes behind the oil rings look like - how do they compare with other pistons that you have?

Offline Topdad

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Re: Engine done about 1800 miles since rebuild
« Reply #49 on: 10.06. 2016 10:19 »
His there a visible return at the oil tank after its warmed up and is the any pressure in the oil talk when you take off the oil filler cap ,just wondering if the oil tank breather is blocked ?
Then the pump, I think you've checked the pump ,do you have a spare? why not  try it ,if not could you borrow one ,I seem to remember you said the pump was new but even new can be broken . sorry grasping at straws but I agree with TT , keep trying Bob
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Offline mugwump

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Re: Engine done about 1800 miles since rebuild
« Reply #50 on: 10.06. 2016 10:42 »
Friend of mine acquired a Huntmaster that had allegedly been re-built, soon blew up throwing conrods etc. On inspection found no trace of the anti sumping ball valve/spring or retaining screw inside the crank case, ( Bikerboy, I'm was not refering to anti sumping tap fitted externally). If, I know its a long shot, the valve has been left out or come undone this will fill the sump and starve the essentials of oil. 

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Offline edboy

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Re: Engine done about 1800 miles since rebuild
« Reply #51 on: 10.06. 2016 18:27 »
bikerboys problem sounds  like a crankcase strip to me. i would look for a loose pick up pipe, or cracked as air is being returned to the oil tank and the oil is being pumped out the breather. it couild be a blocked oil line or oil pump fault but you have checked this with an air line? yes? a loose pick up is a common problem on triumphs.

Offline muskrat

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Re: Engine done about 1800 miles since rebuild
« Reply #52 on: 10.06. 2016 21:01 »
Do you have an inline spin on oil filter fitted? Fitting the pipes the wrong way might cause problems.
It does sound like scavenge problems. Pull the pump off, drop the sump plate, fit hose to scavenge pipe connected to compressed air, finger over the hole and listen for leaks.
Cheers
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Online chaterlea25

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Re: Engine done about 1800 miles since rebuild
« Reply #53 on: 10.06. 2016 21:55 »
Hi,
By any chance do you have a sump plate with a magnetic  drain plug fitted?
It happened to a bike I rebuilt that the magnet was preventing the ball in the pickup pipe from being sucked open *ex* *ex*
Fit the sump plate with the magnet furthest away from the pickup pipe, or remove the magnet and fit a weaker one
If the sump filter is incorrectly fitted and the hole not lined up to the pickup pipe similar problems can occur

John
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Re: Engine done about 1800 miles since rebuild
« Reply #54 on: 10.06. 2016 22:35 »
Another clutch at straws but is the oil supply to the head set up correctly? I think the system relies on holes in the bolts having the correct diameter etc, although I suspect the narrow bore copper pipe feeding the head also provides a significant restriction that prevents too much oil going to the head. I'm not sure exactly what would happen if the drain hole in the head gasket was blocked and preventing oil dropping from the rocker back to the sump but I'm pretty sure the engine would burn lots more oil......

I'm not sure how one could test not too much oil is going to the rockers but on mine I would describe the feed as a little more than a fast drip.

On the other theory of oil building up in the crankcase before blowing out of the breather, I've not experienced (wet sumping) myself this but the oil level would have to get pretty high in the cases to get flung around do that some reaches the breather? And if so there would be a significant drop in the oil in the tank and a noticeable drop in the amount of oil returning to the tank when the oil build up is occurring? Both those things should be pretty evident, and the return system is pretty simple, and once oil has reached the return side of the pump it would take pretty complete blockage to prevent the oil getting back to the tank as the pump can pressurise the return system the same as the supply side if necessary (it shouldn't be necessary mind).

On the anti wet sumping screw being missing, I cannot remember for sure, but isn't that in the supply side not return? (apologies if I have that wrong.......).

I've always thought that if the scavenge pipe was not present or cracked the oil level would not rise that much before oil reached the the hole in the crankcase where it is fitted anyway, so a good safe design by BSA, but obviously I've never tested that theory!
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Offline Beeza

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Re: Engine done about 1800 miles since rebuild
« Reply #55 on: 10.06. 2016 23:56 »
Hi, I have seen this situation where oil at some point just pumps out the breather and was caused by a sticking ball in the sump pick up. The only thing this fellow had done was to use a different oil, when he popped the sump off and tapped the ball we discovered it was stuck down. He went back to the caravan park changed the oil back to his original type and rode the rest of the weekend. I don't know what either oil was.
Hope this helps a bit in this saga.
Also take care with oil pump gasket hole alignment, I just fitted an SRM pump (yep I'm rich), left the timing cover off and the next day oil pool. The gasket oil hole had aligned slightly with the stud hole and leaked out past the stud, when I pulled the gasket out I could see the impression in the SRM supplied gasket where both holes had crossed over, I then made my own gasket.
Good luck
Thomas

Offline muskrat

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Re: Engine done about 1800 miles since rebuild
« Reply #56 on: 11.06. 2016 10:45 »
While the engine is going there shouldn't be much more than a cup full (250ml) of oil in the motor. After a minute or so from start up you should see bubbles coming out of the return stand pipe in the oil tank.
The incorrect banjos with the larger hole will make a difference but the scavenge pump should still be able to clear it, just not as quickly.
Cheers
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Offline shuswapkev

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Re: Engine done about 1800 miles since rebuild
« Reply #57 on: 12.06. 2016 13:02 »
installing the compression rings upside down will do exactly as you have described....
  I have bought 4 bikes over the years...owners have given up on...Suzuki Hondas and BSA ...
comp rings were upside down...engines ran great but smoked like buggery
 
  on some rings there is a chamfer on the inside....that has to be installed as manufacturers instruction..

    hope this is your problem  its a cheap fix

Offline bikerboy

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Re: Engine done about 1800 miles since rebuild
« Reply #58 on: 15.06. 2016 03:07 »
Right let me try to answer as many questions as I can and btw thanks for all your advice.

Since it was rebuilt I have had it totally apart twice trying to cure this problem. Both times I have replaced the check valve behind the oil pump just in case. The TMS pistons cured the smoking problem not caused it the old pistons caused it.

I do not have an external oil filter fitted.

The oil has never failed to circulate that I know of and I check it every time before I ride it (yes I am paranoid about this bike lol)

I do not have a magntic sump fitted I took the cheap option and welded a nut inside the sump cover to give me a drain valve and no it is not hitting the gauze.

The gauze is perfectly clean. The pickup in the sump checks out completely no leaks or cracks.

Now for the latest developments. After throwing all its oil out and virtually draining the tank I took the seat off (yes it was full of oil under there as well) covered the bike in foam gunk and attacked it with the pressure washer. At least that got rid of the oil :)

I topped up the tank with my normal Morris straight 40w and waited for it to do it all again. 200 miles later (140 0f them in the same day) it has shown no sign whatsoever of pumping any oil out???????? The only difference being that I never went above 55 mph.

Now IMO the only thing that causes oil out of the breather like that is excess oil in the sump. Faulty scavenge has to be the problem IMO. If its speed related (when it happened I had been cruising at 65/70) then again IMO all it can be is the oil pump. Thats my theory anyway so if it happens again I will change the oil pump and see where that takes me.

On the plus side barring a slightly dragging clutch (yes the whole thing is new including the bearings, 4 spring type) the bike is a pure pleasure to ride and it does not smoke :):):)

Today, after my 140 miles I fully realised exactly why I fell in love with A10's 45 years ago whether I will feel the same the next time it covers me in oil I dont know ;)

Offline bikerboy

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Re: Engine done about 1800 miles since rebuild
« Reply #59 on: 15.06. 2016 03:19 »
beeza

Agree with you on the oil pump gasket as they are very loose fitting but I was extra careful with it.

I have wondered if its all the same problem but repalcing the pistons has diverted it so to speak.

What if the sump has been pressurising all the time and with the old pistons and rings oil could force its way into the combustion chamber? Now with the new pistons it cant get by so easily so is blowing out of the breather instead?

Just a thought I had which I am not taking that seriously but I assume it might be possible.

The oil lines is a good shout as well if the return is collapsing under pressure the oil would have nowhere else to go but out of the engine breather. I might change them as a matter of course anyway just in case.

For those that mentioned it I have never checked the oil for circualtion hot or cold and seen a problem it appears to pump away quite happily but I never checked it the night it all blew out. It was dark and as I had rerouted the breather pipe on to my side of the bike (near my foot) to keep a close eye on it. Needless to my leg was covered in oil and I just wheeled it into the garage.

On a plus side my dodgy ankle moves a lot easier now and my knee has stopped creaking ;)