Author Topic: kicker  (Read 2830 times)

Offline pedrochapala

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kicker
« on: 07.10. 2015 19:30 »
new valves,guides, 20 over pistons and rings factory spec clearance, about 1000 miles. this problem is getting worse. it's like pressure builds with a kick or 2  or 3 or 4 and you need to be a body builder. used to be a 1 kick starter. somebody told me that the clearance should be 7-8 thou not the factory 4.5.. once one of my stronger mates gets it going for me it runs just fine. because i can't start it myself most of the time i am down to only a couple of miles once or twice/week. i used to ride every day. help!!!!!! it ain't the gear box. i just took the oil out and kicked it fine with the plugs out. plugs in and you get the pressure problem even with no oil in the sump.
help this old guy ride again-por favor!
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Online muskrat

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Re: kicker
« Reply #1 on: 07.10. 2015 20:23 »
G'day Pedro.
Are you sure it's not the kickstart quadrant and pinion binding? Sometimes on mine the kicker jams. Put her in gear, rock back and forth, back in neutral and kick again.
Wear in the kickstart pinion bush is to blame.
Cheers
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Offline pedrochapala

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Re: kicker
« Reply #2 on: 07.10. 2015 21:13 »
thanks muskrat but the gearbox is fine. fresh rebuilt and as i said with the plugs out it kicks just fine.
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Online morris

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Re: kicker
« Reply #3 on: 07.10. 2015 21:54 »
When you keep your weight on the kick, does it eventually goes through the compression?
Just crossed my mind that it may be the cush drive nut that came loose, and is jamming itself against the inside of the primary cover?
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Offline pedrochapala

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Re: kicker
« Reply #4 on: 07.10. 2015 22:12 »
if it was doing that-there would be noise. once i get the bike going it runs and idles fine. when i rebuilt the gear box,i took it out totally and i inspected that side including the clutch as well and everything was fine. the key thing to remember is that it kicks fine with the plugs out. i really don't want to take the top end apart again
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Online RichardL

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Re: kicker
« Reply #5 on: 07.10. 2015 22:46 »
Pedro,

First of all, glad to see you back and hope you are well and fully recovered from surgery, etc.

I don't want to beat this up too bad, because you've already said the gearbox is fine, but you also said it was just rebuilt. If you replaced the quadrant or the pinion in that rebuild, it is possible that you got the wrong tooth profile. I know this because I made that mistake. Having the wrong tooth profile might allow for almost normal kickover under no compression, then, make it very hard when the engine pushes some force back toward you, if you get what I mean.

Richard L.

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Offline coater87

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Re: kicker
« Reply #6 on: 08.10. 2015 00:32 »
 I had this EXACT same problem when this bike was partially assembled. Plugs out, kicked over fine. Plugs in, 190 pounds could not budge it.

 I never did get the bike running at the time, but when I finally tore it to bits, the only thing I found that could account for this was a badly worn layshaft bushing (drive side), and an equally bad layshaft shaft on the drive side also. The teeth on the primary gears were also shaped like waves on the ocean. I believe gear alignment was fine when under no type of load (compression), but once a load was introduced things no longer meshed correctly. Once the motor is running, it has the power to overcome the alignment problem, but running it is constantly making it worse.

 Nothing I found in the motor would account for it. Plugs were not hitting the pistons, neither were the valves, etc. etc. These were the things I thought I might find but did not.

 I really believe the only thing that can cause this is misalignment in the gearbox. I know it was just freshly rebuilt, but it also used to start easily. Now after a while things are steadily getting worse. Maybe it really is time to bite the bullet and take a fresh peak inside the box. If nothing else, it will totally eliminate it.
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Offline pedrochapala

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Re: kicker
« Reply #7 on: 08.10. 2015 03:49 »
hmmmm! when i use the clutch and kick it several times and then try again sometimes that works. what are you referring to as "quadrant"? i had a bushing drive side[back] made to fit the layshaft end as the shaft was worn to a 5 thou taper. the old bushing was so worn that the shaft dropped down. this does not happen now. should i drain the box and see if there are any filings in the oil?
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Online RichardL

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Re: kicker
« Reply #8 on: 08.10. 2015 04:38 »
The quadrant is the gear attached to the kick shaft. It's called quadrant because it's not a complete round gear but about 1/4  of a complete gear (o, cuarto). If  I remember right (without going to look at pictures) most of our bikes want the pointy teeth on the kickstart quadrant and pinion. The ones that are squared off bind up.

I don't know what to say about the layshaft bushings but a start by taking off the outer cover might tell the story. Another hard kicking problem I had happened when the kick shaft bushing worked its way out resulting in the kick shaft unsupported and, then, fracturing the outer cover.

Ricard L.

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Offline pedrochapala

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Re: kicker
« Reply #9 on: 08.10. 2015 04:47 »
hmmm! my quadrant's teeth are squared off. do you think i was sold the wrong quad? the last tooth is only half a tooth.
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Online RichardL

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Re: kicker
« Reply #10 on: 08.10. 2015 06:03 »
Pedro,

I think you might want to read some of this: http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=3220.msg22014#msg22014

The stuff I wrote at the top of that topic is kinda long winded, but I had just gone through the broken outer cover thing and was maybe losing my mind. Basically, I got into the issue of squared-off quadrant teeth. It gets a little more convincing when you get to the posts starting with bsa-bill's.

Richard L.
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Offline duTch

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Re: kicker
« Reply #11 on: 08.10. 2015 08:04 »
 
Quote
It's called quadrant because it's not a complete round gear but about 1/4  of a complete gear (o, cuarto).

  Someone was having an issue the other week that prompted me to investigate this, and I discovered it's actually about exactly a third (1/3), but 'Thirdrant' doesn't sound as impressive *conf*
 
Quote
hmmm! my quadrant's teeth are squared off. do you think i was sold the wrong quad? the last tooth is only half a tooth.

 Hiya Pedro, good to hear from you even under tenuous circumstance...I'm not sure if there's a difference between Plungers profiles and  Swingarm jobbies, I keep meaning to investigate this, I think there are differences like some are splined and some aren't, and Goldy type ones have a different return cutaway so they return further(I think); having said that, unless I missed something, you haven't actually said you replaced the thirdrant... *smile*...ahhm..

 How's the mariachi stuff going...??

 We'll get you there *wink2*
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Started building in about 1977/8 a on average '52 A10 -built from bits 'n pieces never resto intended -maybe 'personalised'
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Online morris

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Re: kicker
« Reply #12 on: 08.10. 2015 11:46 »
the last tooth is only half a tooth.
They're all like that sir *smile*

Had an issue once where I replaced the quadrant but not the counterpart gear as it was still good in my opinion. I noticed there was a slight difference in teeth form but installed it anyway but then the kick started jamming in any position. I ordered a new pinion at the same dealer, and after that it worked perfectly. Pinion and quadrant need to be changed in pairs it seems.

Quote
It's called quadrant because it's not a complete round gear but about 1/4  of a complete gear (o, cuarto).

  Someone was having an issue the other week that prompted me to investigate this, and I discovered it's actually about exactly a third (1/3), but 'Thirdrant' doesn't sound as impressive *conf*

Engineers often refer to this type of gear as "segment gear". Can be as long or as short as you want it to be... and sounds more impressive *smile*
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Offline chaterlea25

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Re: kicker
« Reply #13 on: 08.10. 2015 12:51 »
Hi Pedro and All,
There are two different tooth profiles used on BSA''s and as mentioned they do not mix  *eek*
Recently I bought a couple of flat or squared off topped pinion gears for customer rebuilds
However the bore on the centre was bigger than the originals *????*
This would lead to the gears being forced apart and possibly jamming as well??
I made new bushes for them to correct the problem as I could not find the flat topped pinions anywhere else  *????* *????*

Pedro, who ever told you that the bores should have 7-8 thou clearance needs to be ignored big time  :!
You have the correct clearance
What you have found is that the compression has increased as the rings have bedded in, As it should be *ex*
When the engine was worn it was probably very easy to kick over, now its "fixed" it will be harder to kick over
If you pull in the clutch and then engage the kickstart till it goes down a couple of inches (release clutch)
can you then kick the engine over?

HTH
John





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Offline pedrochapala

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Re: kicker
« Reply #14 on: 08.10. 2015 15:22 »
re:the quad gear. a reminder that my beezer is a '53 golden flash so should it be tapered or flat or is it just a badly made one? yes i changed out both gears.
i will try your suggestion john. by the way i used flat top pistons and cold my compression is 90 and hot 110 so that shouldn't be a factor as before my pistons were domed and when compression was good-125.
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