Author Topic: Getting scary!  (Read 1257 times)

Offline coater87

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2008
  • Posts: 1181
  • Karma: 6
Getting scary!
« on: 01.06. 2009 02:21 »
 Well,

 This entire project is starting to get a little scary.

After getting the barrels off, in which the threads are shot from jamming the wrong bolts down the holes for the head, I also noticed some of the barrel studs looked funny. After looking closer I believe these are nothing more then hardware store all-thread cut to length, and of coarse the threads are shot there too.

 Onto the timing covers, I saw an awful lot of blue gasket maker smeared around the dynamo sprocket, but didnt think too much of it. Got the very badly mangled cheese heads out, and noticed the studs for the oil pump are also all-thread. Got those out only to find- no gasket at all, just blue stuff. And I mean a LOT of it. Fact being the oil holes are half plugged with it- glad the threads on the crank are good.

 Had to work to get the inner cover off, and found- you guessed it, GOBS of blue and now orange stuff too. Chunks of this floating around everywhere, smeared inside the cases, and believe it or not they even used the orange stuff instead of the thick cork washer that goes in the cam pinion, it looks like they tried two pieces of thick plastic and sealant instead. Speaking of the cam, when this is turned it feels bent- kind of loosens then tightens as you go.

 Pulling the pistons was a breeze- they forgot the circlips. I only had to warm one piston to pull the gudgeon- the other one almost fell out on its own.

 Now I am down to removing the case bolts- about a quarter of those are all-thread, 1/2 are stripped round, and the other two look OK. Amazingly, there seams to be little or no slop on the drive side bush- but an awful lot of end float and the rods are really sloppy. I would not be surprised if they smeared the crank with goo to take out the slop. Probably couldnt get the rod bolts loose so they just rounded them off instead.

 I dont believe there was a single gasket (besides a mangled head gasket) used anywhere in the "rebuild". They must have been in good standing with the hardware store guy to aford all that all-thread and gasket goo.

 I am almost afraid to go any further, as I can see the dollar signs really starting to roll here. I must need $200.00 in heli coils alone, and thats not including the bolts. I cannot lathe off the piston domes like I thought- and a new/used cam will set me back along with a rebuilt oil pump because without even checking I am sure its torqued out of straight.

 BUT, the threads on the crank look good, I have 90% of the pieces for the bike (though they all need 100% looking after).

 Maybe I should throw the whole thing back together, put the banana seat and coffin tank and ape hangers back on and put it on E-Bay.

 The ad could read:

 RARE! 1958 BSA golden flash chopper! Built in 1971 to professional chopper standards, all the good stuff is there- just needs a little T.L.C. and a squirt with a hose to look like new! This is a once in a lifetime opportunity to own this rare collectible!! Bid early, bid often! Reserve set at only $20,000 U.S.!!! Happy bidding! *eek*

 Lee
Central Wisconsin in the U.S.

Online RichardL

  • Outside Chicago, IL
  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2007
  • Posts: 4967
  • Karma: 48
Re: Getting scary!
« Reply #1 on: 01.06. 2009 04:44 »
Lee,

Not a lot of good news there but, it seems, nothing insurmountable. It's not too surprising that the bad mechanic just kept doing each new task wrong, rather than suddenly be struck by a bolt of lightning causing him to opt for high quality. One theory could be that the "rebuild" was undertaken before or without the benefit of the internet, allowing for access to good information and correct parts.

I suppose you're right about the cost of helicoils, considering $35-$50 for each kit size.

I don't recall if your pistons must be replaced for a rebore or not. As I have said before, the 9:1 compression ratio is not completely non-stock (for alloy heads), and I will say that today's ride, on my own 9:1's, was very pleasant and smooth, with no sense that the engine was somehow being unnecessarily stressed from the higher-than-7.5:1-compression-ratio pistons. Of course, it is, in fact, a bit more stressed, but not that one could quantitize from the seat atop the bike.

You say you are"...almost afraid to go further." We, however, can'[t wait for you to go further. It's like kids gathered around a compfire and listening to ghost stories.

Richard L.
Plan on signing up for the world-wide 2017 DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDE on September 30, 2018. Watch website at https://www.gentlemansride.com for details.

Offline snowbeard

  • American Citizen in Lisbon, Portugal
  • A's Best Friend
  • ***
  • Join Date: Aug 2007
  • Posts: 246
  • Karma: 0
Re: Getting scary!
« Reply #2 on: 01.06. 2009 05:39 »
well at least going further you can't screw anything up worse!!!   ;)

it kinda takes the pressure off, once you know that it was pretty much a scrap heap, and all you're doing is making things right, and small things you do can be no worse than what you're fixing.

maybe new cases would be in order? I see those go for the occasional steal on ebay, and once you get it all apart you may find that the cam is due to something else besides being bent!  and from what I've seen these engines will run throughout a lot of minor defects.

good luck to ya, feel free to scare us with pics too, but keep at it, and be patient in your search.  the very worst is you have to sell bits of it on ebay to cover a new motor!!
__________________
\'57 BSA A-10 Spitfire Scrambler
Spitfire Starting Video
\1960 Super Rocket (basket)
\1981 Suzi GS650
\1988 BMW K100LT in Lisbon!!

=

Offline flashblack

  • West Devon, England
  • A's Best Friend
  • ***
  • Join Date: Feb 2009
  • Posts: 211
  • Karma: 1
  • 1959 golden flash
Re: Getting scary!
« Reply #3 on: 01.06. 2009 06:52 »
Quote
RARE! 1958 BSA golden flash chopper! Built in 1971 to professional chopper standards, all the good stuff is there- just needs a little T.L.C. and a squirt with a hose to look like new! This is a once in a lifetime opportunity to own this rare collectible!!

 Sounds just like mine when i bought it! It`ll be worth it in the end though.
 I agree with Snowbeard, post some pics of it.
                                                             Richie
build it, ride it, live it!

Offline coater87

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2008
  • Posts: 1181
  • Karma: 6
Re: Getting scary!
« Reply #4 on: 02.06. 2009 06:25 »
 Hi guys,

 All joking aside, this thing is a mess.

 Now that I am certain 80% of the bolts/studs/holes are completely shot, I have a quandry. Do I go for BSC and Whitworth heli coils and pop for expensive replacement bolts (I am not a big fan of stainless in high stress areas). And if I do this, should I pop for a complete set of taps/dies and make my own?

 OR, do I forget the BSC stuff, go for common bolts readily available to me- the heli kits are MUCH cheaper, I already own all the proper tools, and I will save a bunch and replacement is always easy.

 Besides the slight difference in look, can anyone think of a specific reason why I should not do this? Bolt head size, shaft diameter problems, etc?

 The main problem I can see with this idea is head bolts, those I would probably have to turn/mill from scratch, and thats quite an undertaking- I believe they have a special shoulder on them (but I cant be sure as I dont have a single original to look at!).

 Little off topic here, has anyone noticed the prices for parts on American e-bay, they seam to have gone completely crazy in the last 6 months! Outter primary cover (not polished or perfect) for $157.00!! Barrels (on standard) for $370 something???!.

 I could probably sell all this stuff and get a semi decent A10 without all the hassle!  *conf*

 Lee
Central Wisconsin in the U.S.

Offline tombeau

  • Resident Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Aug 2008
  • Posts: 678
  • Karma: 6
Re: Getting scary!
« Reply #5 on: 02.06. 2009 19:00 »

Hei Lee,

http://www.jockeyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=493873#post493873

Is that any good to you?
The bloke may even trade for your chopper stuff considering the source of the ad.
Cheers,
Iain

Online RichardL

  • Outside Chicago, IL
  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2007
  • Posts: 4967
  • Karma: 48
Re: Getting scary!
« Reply #6 on: 02.06. 2009 19:36 »
Lee:

BSC and Whitworth bolts tend to be readily available and, I believe, reasonably priced. Having taps and dies is not a bad thing, but I wouldn't get them just to make nuts and bolts, considering my first statement. I have purchased a couple of taps, when the need arose.

As for the helicoil kits, I think you are correct, they run about double.

As to reasons not to make a complete change to imperial: 1) If you sell the bike, you will be better off if you can say it is all (or, at least, mostly) original british hardware sizes. 2) If you want to purchase hardware based on part number in your parts book, you have no cross-referencing to do. 3) If you are going all the way with it, any remaining brit hardware would need to be unnecessarily replaced and the associated holes helicoiled.

As for head bolts, they are of a specific design that allows for stretching without breaking when the engine expands with heat. Replacing them with some off-the-shelf high-tensile bolt is, to me, a mistake (but others might think it's OK). Now, once you've bought the the helicoil kit for these you probably have one of the more expensive ones, effectively reducing the difference paid in the cost of kits.

And when you buy that nice, complete, already beautiful A10, will you have the same sense of pride when you pull up next to the nice, complete, already beautiful Harley Davidsons that were recently bought off the showroom floor?  I find that that is one of the things that makes me feel different from them. If I just wanted a motorcycle for the purpose of covering miles, I think I would, indeed, buy a Harley Davidson or, maybe, a Victory.

Richard L.
Plan on signing up for the world-wide 2017 DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDE on September 30, 2018. Watch website at https://www.gentlemansride.com for details.

Offline fido

  • Zala County, Hungary
  • Resident Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Aug 2006
  • Posts: 677
  • Karma: 8
Re: Getting scary!
« Reply #7 on: 02.06. 2009 23:26 »
I think I would give up  and sell it. I'm trying to fix a Royal Enfield Crusader 250 for a mate. The bike looks much more tidy than my A7 but there are so many stripped threads and other nasties in the engine and gearbox that you would struggle to ever make it reliable or oiltight. I've already found out about the limitations of helicoils in through holes, having lost one of the inserts when screwing on the primary cover. I suppose in such cases you need to put the inserts in with loctite to stop them from unscrewing out the back of the case as you tighten the screw.

Offline 69Bonni

  • A's Best Friend
  • ***
  • Join Date: Apr 2009
  • Posts: 109
  • Karma: 0
  • '67 A65T, '58 Roadrocket, '69 Bonnie, '60 350 AJS
Re: Getting scary!
« Reply #8 on: 08.06. 2009 11:02 »
Hi Lee,

I guess you have to look at it as a Labour of love! As Richard said what would you rather have something hand built to your spec or something, Made in China and assembled in Milwaukee? Joking aside i think anyone and everyone that goes through this and restores what is little more than a heap to a nice usable bike is a Hero. Otherwise these bikes would be destine for the scrap yard or be broken down and sold as bits. Its a hard call i know but when it is finished you will have a sense of achivement like nothing else. It would be nice to stick to original threads, but if its the difference between rebuilding it or not, i wouldnt let it get in your way.

I remember when i rebuilt the Bonnie i kept the receipts ........... You dont want do that! If you do, you dont wanna add them up, else you'll run your Advert and look for the next classic bike shop!

I could have bought one, finished and sparking, done! but it wouldnt be the same, i wouldnt have learnt even more, i wouldnt have the peace of mind that its been done properly. (and the wife wouldnt have got me out from under her feet for months!).

This is reflected in the price of some classic bikes, owners trying to recoupe what thay have spent to rebuild it, they rarely do.

I wish you all the best with the build, i will be embarking on my 4th soon (i must be a masocist)

Regards

Steve
Kind Regards
Steve Rickman