Author Topic: Another Dynamo Issue  (Read 928 times)

Online Roger (Doomtrainbarx)

  • A's Good Friend
  • ***
  • Join Date: Jun 2020
  • Posts: 216
  • Karma: 1
    • Soundclick
Another Dynamo Issue
« on: 11.08. 2021 13:37 »
My S.R. is running standard 6v E3L and Wassell regulator.
It has always overcharged showing  9v across the battery, so I thought I'd fit a DVR2 regulator ( I have one on my other SR and it works perfect)
I fitted the new DVR2 and it would not charge at all so I did the D to F bridge to test the dynamo and got a healthy 14.5 volts on the multi-meter - so re-connected the DVR2 - still nothing - so refitted the Wassell - back to overcharging as before. ??
Next i fitted the new DVR2 to my other SR -charging perfectly so I know the new one isn't faulty.
Any help/advice much appreciated.
1962 Super Rocket
2003 Kawasaki Z1000
1987 Kawasaki ZL1000 Eliminator
1989 Harley FXRS (Turbo)

Offline Butch (cb)

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2010
  • Posts: 1691
  • Karma: 16
Re: Another Dynamo Issue
« Reply #1 on: 11.08. 2021 15:38 »
I had something very similar on a Sunbeam S7D some years back. Turned out to be some kind of dynamo fault. Unable to be any more specific than that though.
Warning - observations made by this member have a 93% unreliability rating.

Of Bikes; various, including ...
'58 S/Arm Iron Head Flash Bitza


Online groily

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2007
  • Posts: 1849
  • Karma: 31
    • www.brightsparkmagnetos.com
Re: Another Dynamo Issue
« Reply #2 on: 11.08. 2021 17:31 »
Just a thought - are you neg or pos earth? If neg, then the Wassell regulator will have required the Field connections to be between F and D. The DVR2 needs the field between F and Earth at the dynamo, same as the original Lucas set-up, whether its Pos or Neg earth. Won't work with a dynamo wired the other way. Why the Wassell units require the wiring change at the dynamo according to polarity has always been a mystery to me.
If you're Pos Earth already, then this is irrelevant, and I think you have to check your wiring at the dynamo and from the dynamo, and your relevant earths, carefully.
I assume you've been seeing pretty big charge rates on the ammeter too, which might indicate that there's a basic fault at the dynamo creating the situation where it's impossible to regulate the output. In the standard set-up, that could be a short between F and D. But whether something like that would be 'detected' by the DVR2 and stop it working, I'm not sure. A failure of the earth wire connection will cause them to go unregulated, but that's not your problem.
This could be one of those tricky ones, I get a feeling  . . . so it has to be 'one thing at a time' while sucking and seeing.

Bill

Offline Swarfcut

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2018
  • Posts: 2219
  • Karma: 54
Re: Another Dynamo Issue
« Reply #3 on: 11.08. 2021 17:38 »
 The Wassell unit set up requirements differ from the DRV2 as regards the Dynamo internal wiring, that's why it won't work.

  The D/F test shows the armature, brushes and field coil are working.  Standard set up for E3L is one brush and one field coil lead to a common earth, other brush to D.  Then a motor check to ensure correct polarity of output.

   With the DVR2 working on another bike, dynamo and battery are the only other suspects.

   Make sure the bike battery polarity matches the dynamo and DVR2, even down to re polarising the dynamo.

 This may help.

https://www.themagnetoguys.co.uk/wiring-up-2-brush-dynamos

 A history of overcharging is a conundrum. Also we assume the dynamo is a standard 6 volt version not one that has been fitted with uprated armature and field coil. Puts the Wassell Unit in the doghouse for the time being but further investigation may prove it to be OK, and the Dynamo is the culprit. The Dynamo could have been wired incorrectly for the Wassell Unit from the start.

  A different scheme of Dynamo internal wiring  can put the field coil in series with the armature, standard set up is in parallel, known a "Shunt Wound". This allows a relatively constant output voltage at varying armature speeds by modulating the power fed to the field coil. Well in theory it does, and this is what the standard electro mechanical regulator attempts to do.

 Swarfy.


 Additional. Mr G posted before me, and we're on the same sheet. A search on the Forum for Wassell Regulator will bring up a good few stories of this problematic or maybe just mis-understood unit.

Online Roger (Doomtrainbarx)

  • A's Good Friend
  • ***
  • Join Date: Jun 2020
  • Posts: 216
  • Karma: 1
    • Soundclick
Re: Another Dynamo Issue
« Reply #4 on: 11.08. 2021 20:26 »
Thank you Swarfy and Groily for your replies - the battery is pos earth and the Wassell is marked 6 volt posi earth and I  have wired the DVR2 for 6 volt pos earth.
How exactly do I "repolarize'  the dynamo ? - apologies for my lack of electrical know-how.
The ammeter reading is almost off the scale although it does start slightly positive
1962 Super Rocket
2003 Kawasaki Z1000
1987 Kawasaki ZL1000 Eliminator
1989 Harley FXRS (Turbo)

Offline RDfella

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2017
  • Posts: 2194
  • Karma: 15
Re: Another Dynamo Issue
« Reply #5 on: 11.08. 2021 20:54 »
By 'flashing' the dynamo field terminal from the battery's neg.
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '62 Flash special, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

Online groily

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2007
  • Posts: 1849
  • Karma: 31
    • www.brightsparkmagnetos.com
Re: Another Dynamo Issue
« Reply #6 on: 11.08. 2021 22:30 »
OK, so you are Pos earth already, and it was (over)charging, so let's assume polarity must be correct and that the field coil is wired 'per Lucas' and correctly for a DVR2. Let's also assume for the moment that the dynamo is working, as it was chucking out volts, and presumably supporting 'loads' as the ammeter was showing a large charge rate. And dare we assume too that there isn't an unwanted connection at the dyn between F and D, which would prevent regulation from ever happening?

I wonder what the battery voltage is, right now? Has it dropped back to 'sensible' - as in 6.something volts - or is it still showing an unusually high voltage? It shouldn't, but if it does your DVR might not kick in because it isn't designed to support a battery with a higher-than-it-should-be voltage.
As is often said, with a correctly charged battery you'll see very little on an ammeter by way of charge because it doesn't need anything more than the lightest trickle - but what happens if a battery is showing a voltage above the 'system voltage' when the engine's running (which is 7.2v on a 6v system) is territory rarely-visited I think! A single voltaic cell, fully charged, will show 2.2v; a 6v battery has three cells, so a reading of 6.6v is 'fully charged'. Anything more than a small margin above that is abnormal. Regulation is set typically at that 7.2v level to ensure the maintenance and gentle charging of a fully-charged battery.

What I'd do next, if you can bear it, is hook up one of your DVR2s again, to the dynamo and to a good earth - ie green yellow and red leads connected.
I wouldn't connect the combined brown and white doubled-up output wires to the ammeter/switch just yet.
Start the engine, and put your multimeter, on the volts scale, between brown & white and any good earth. If the dyn & regulator are working, you'll see volts coming out as the engine revs, and it should settle at around 7 to 7.5v. It will be spiky, especially if using a digital meter, but it will show whether there's activity well enough.
The battery does not have to be in circuit for these particular regulators to work.

If there is no output, then there is a problem with the dynamo or the wiring between it and the known-working regulator.
 
If there IS output, then we need to move upstream:
Hook the brown and white wire into its allotted spot at switch / ammeter, but leave the battery disconnected, and run the engine again.
Do the lights now come on above tickover, and go off again at v low rpm? If so, good, that's what they should do. And if they don't blow with a handful of revs, or go far brighter than they ought, then you're regulating OK. They'll flicker a bit at lower revs, but will look steady as revs rise. If all the bulbs do go pop with a few revs, then it's not regulating  . . .

And now what happens if you connect the battery up again  . . .?? In a well-ordered world, nothing bad. You'll see a small charge on the ammeter and the battery should show a voltage that is slightly higher with the engine running at revs than with the engine stopped or at tickover  (and never anywhere near 9v!). . .  In an evil world, who knows? You'll find out, if you get as far as having a system that works until you hook up the battery! In which case there's a problem between ammeter and battery, at the battery wiring, or with the battery itself. 


.
Bill

Online Roger (Doomtrainbarx)

  • A's Good Friend
  • ***
  • Join Date: Jun 2020
  • Posts: 216
  • Karma: 1
    • Soundclick
Re: Another Dynamo Issue
« Reply #7 on: 11.08. 2021 22:46 »
Phew ! - that's quite a lot to take in Groily but many thanks - I will try and follow your recommendations and report back.
1962 Super Rocket
2003 Kawasaki Z1000
1987 Kawasaki ZL1000 Eliminator
1989 Harley FXRS (Turbo)

Online Roger (Doomtrainbarx)

  • A's Good Friend
  • ***
  • Join Date: Jun 2020
  • Posts: 216
  • Karma: 1
    • Soundclick
Re: Another Dynamo Issue
« Reply #8 on: 11.08. 2021 22:58 »
Groily - I've just realised I may have misled you in my original post.
I got the 9 volt reading across the battery with the engine running.
Without the engine running it read 6.3 volts - it's one of those yellow Motobat sealed batteries with hard-wired leads.
1962 Super Rocket
2003 Kawasaki Z1000
1987 Kawasaki ZL1000 Eliminator
1989 Harley FXRS (Turbo)

Online groily

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2007
  • Posts: 1849
  • Karma: 31
    • www.brightsparkmagnetos.com
Re: Another Dynamo Issue
« Reply #9 on: 12.08. 2021 07:20 »
Groily - I've just realised I may have misled you in my original post.
You didn't mislead Roger - but was just interested what it showed with the engine stopped in case something v weird had happened, which should be physically impossible, which could affect the relationship with the DVR. 6.3v is good. (A sceptical cynical part of me was sort of wondering if the battery was actually a 6 volter!)
Anyway, you'll be able to see if the dyn and reg work soon enough  . . .
Bill

Online Roger (Doomtrainbarx)

  • A's Good Friend
  • ***
  • Join Date: Jun 2020
  • Posts: 216
  • Karma: 1
    • Soundclick
Re: Another Dynamo Issue
« Reply #10 on: 13.08. 2021 20:09 »
Charging problem now solved thanks to members of the Forum that offered advice.
Turned out to be the dynamo wired in a very strange way which allowed an overcharge to occur when connected to a dodgy Wassell regulator.
How lucky we are to have such a great Forum.
1962 Super Rocket
2003 Kawasaki Z1000
1987 Kawasaki ZL1000 Eliminator
1989 Harley FXRS (Turbo)