Author Topic: Reassurance sought (pieces of metal in sump cover \ oil leak)  (Read 3292 times)

Online jhg1958

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After doing some work on the GF I finally started it last week. It started on the third kick and it retuned oil.  It made a bit of an alarming cracking sound so I stopped it and started to look for problems. I moved the bike to have bit of a clean up putting it on the side stand. To my horror I found oil under the left hand side of the engine. The primary drive was a bit tight and I feared I have done something serious to the crankcase.

I removed the primary chain case and could not find the crack in the crankcase that I had so vividly imagined. Even the oil seal looked ok.

I drained the crankcase and got about 1 pint of oil out. So much for SRM pump stopping wet sumping. I have an SRM sump cover and the magnetic plug had a few whiskers but nothing that I have not seen on my japanese bikes over the years.

This is the first time I have removed the sump cover since it had been rebuilt. As I have fitted a cartridge filter I thought removing it was unnecessary. The oil was clean but I found 2 small pieces of metal.

My questions

Should I be worried about the 2 pieces of metal?

Should/can I replace the drive side oil seal?

John

adm edit: edited topic title to be descriptive.
1961 Golden Flash S/Arm

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Re: Reassurance sought
« Reply #1 on: 29.04. 2025 09:53 »
  Ever the optimist and self styled skinflint, here's my thoughts.

 Couple of maybe unrelated events, or combination of several factors.

 Sump full of oil, despite a good return and a top class pump.  Engine could have wet sumped on standing, and with faith in that new pump etc not checked. Sure enough out of the breather it comes and onto the crankcase, simulating a major failure.

 The cracking noise and metal bits are a conundrum, one looks like a piece of alloy, the other a tinge of yellow, both non magnetic ? So how to proceed?

 Forget the oilseal for now, it can be easily replaced once the cush assembly is off.

 As for the metal, a looky up into the crankcase via the open sump. Look for anything out of place on the flywheel rim, marks, gouges, witness marks on conrods, big end nuts. With the plugs out turn the engine by hand feeling for tight spots, strange noises, unexpected resistance. For the sake of a couple of gaskets, a full check of the timing side is worth doing if nothing in the crankcase is amiss. They may be unrelated to what has happened and been there for a long time. Do they look "fresh" with a bright surface indicating recent damage, or well carboned up?

 The take off for the rocker feed should come after the filter, otherwise the return will take the easier path via the rockers and fill the sump rather than the tank. I doubt yours is incorrectly fitted, but worth a check.

 Finally....it's a simple twin cylinder motorcycle engine. Reach for a beer, count your blessings, it's an easy fix.....compared to some vehicles featured in this Forum.

 Swarfy.

Online sean

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Re: Reassurance sought
« Reply #2 on: 29.04. 2025 17:46 »
Excess crankcase oil will be exiting this breather hole an SRM pump will not stop wet sumping .
Has the motor been rebuilt and the check valve and spring been replaced.?
Page 6 in parts catalog
67-1400
1-4675

Online jhg1958

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Re: Reassurance sought
« Reply #3 on: 30.04. 2025 16:19 »
Many thanks for the replies. I have found the vent hole and it’s nice and oily. The engine was rebuilt 4 years ago and has only done a couple of thousand miles. I am confident it was a good rebuild.

 The oil seal is fine and the flywheel clean. It turns over smoothly. The start up was after a gearbox rebuild and gearbox sprocket replacement. Also a pulling down the head after a little blowing when I was last out.

I plan to put the thing back together get the correct tension on the primary and start it up.

When I turn the engine over a small puff of air is pushed out of the seal. Is this normal?


John
1961 Golden Flash S/Arm

Online sean

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Re: Reassurance sought
« Reply #4 on: 30.04. 2025 16:50 »
filters are cheap you may get a better pic of whats going on inside if you cut the filter open [ I made a tool for it  using a pipe cutter wheel ] and check for  metal  always a good idea to add a filter .
good luck

Online jhg1958

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Re: Reassurance sought
« Reply #5 on: 30.04. 2025 21:06 »
Sean

I plan to change the oil cold and will have a look at the filter. I opened the first one and was surprised at how clean it was. This one might be different. Tempted to go for a modern mineral oil for this change.

There cannot be much in the sludge trap and the cartridge filter will take anything out.

John
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Re: Reassurance sought
« Reply #6 on: 30.04. 2025 21:33 »
G'day John.
"When I turn the engine over a small puff of air is pushed out of the seal. Is this normal?"
Short answer is no!
Are you sure it's coming from the seal? Could be the three inner primary holes or even the breather hole as their close to the seal.
I'd replace the seal anyway as your in there.
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS racer now a A10CR,  '83 CB1100F, 88 HD FXST, 2000 CBR929RR ex Honda Australia Superbike .
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Online jhg1958

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Re: Reassurance sought
« Reply #7 on: 30.04. 2025 22:08 »
Musky

No not the breather as it pushed out the distance piece (67-1138).  Not sure where the inner primary holes are.

could I have got the cranks breather wrong?  I have been plagued with oil leaks. it is hard to see how it could be wrong.

John
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Re: Reassurance sought
« Reply #8 on: 30.04. 2025 23:18 »
i read somewhere that there are two types of breather with the peg hole in a different position am i right.

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Re: Reassurance sought
« Reply #9 on: 01.05. 2025 07:58 »
I think you are correct. I think the longstroke is different.

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Re: Reassurance sought
« Reply #10 on: 01.05. 2025 10:05 »
G'day John.
The three holes I mentioned are the ones going through the inner & outer primary cover and thread into the crank case.
Cheers
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Re: Reassurance sought
« Reply #11 on: 01.05. 2025 10:09 »
 That crankcase is in effect a twin cylinder air pump. The breather opens when the crank is in a certain position, cam, pistons, crank all in the right place. So with the drive sleeve off and the breather closed for most of a revolution, any pressure change  will vent to atmosphere  by the easiest route as the pistons descend, reducing the volume of the crankcase.  A blocked breather is unlikely but easy to check with the timing cover removed. So I would say with the engine in this state of assembly this is nothing to cause concern. The oilseal has sealed nicely around the distance piece and pressure from descending pistons has pushed the distance piece along the crank.

 As for the breather bush, it is certainly a miracle (to me at least) how it actually works. Plenty on the Forum to consider. Longstroke cam gear is same size, shape, etc but the peg drive for the breather sleeve is OPPOSITE the keyway. Standard shortstroke engine has the peg offset to one side of the keyway.

More info in this link to  Forum  posts.


  https://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=5549.msg37740;topicseen#msg37740

  Breather sleeves themselves differ over time in the profile of the outer end, but top hat brim and size/position of the vent hole looks to be the same for all engines, at least on parts to hand, but I have noticed in some cases the hole in the breather and the hole in the inner cover leading to the breather cross drilling do not fully coincide.

 Swarfy.
 

 

Online JulianS

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Re: Reassurance sought
« Reply #12 on: 01.05. 2025 10:48 »
The breather was modified in 1961 by repositioning the peg hole but kept the same part number. See attached parts bulletin.

Don't know what the difference is though.

Online jhg1958

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Re: Reassurance sought
« Reply #13 on: 01.05. 2025 12:43 »
I may have the modified breather as the bike is 1961 but who knows what POs have done and anyway it was just an improvement not a major change. I checked the gear and it is an A10 not long stroke.  I suspect I would not have got the timing right.

The cork has a slight indent so it suggests that it is thick enough.

There was plenty of oil in the timing chest so it has done a great deal of wet sumping after standing for 6 months.  I suspect all the problems a due to this.

The oil must have come from the vent as any oil from the main seal would have entered the primary chaincase. I run a dry chaincase and there was no oil when I opened it.

I suspect all this work (with the exception of draining the sump) was a WOT.

Never mind, I will order new gaskets and reassemble after the bank hols.  In the mean time I will get the old oil out and buy some new as it was time for a change.  I will open up the cartridge filter but I guess it will be as clean and the first change.

John


John   
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Re: Reassurance sought
« Reply #14 on: 01.05. 2025 15:50 »
 At least you have some assurance of no major damage and this is priceless in avoiding sleepless nights and nagging doubts.

    Oil will fill the oilpump cavity, (outflow from the timing bush), rising to the level of the "keyhole" just above the pump and then back into the crankcase and sump. The amount comes as an unwelcome surprise to those removing the timing cover for the first time without a drip tray ready to hand.

    Maybe its a trick of the light but there seems to be a small area of brighter alloy visible in the keyhole. Could this be the source of one of those metallic bits?

 Swarfy