Oil discharge

[Mikey82]

1963 Golden Flash
I’m getting an oil discharge from the breather hole behind the clutch cover on the bottom of the engine.
It happened before when the engine was running and a lot of oil was discharging from the breather.
I removed the sump cover and checked the ball in the small pipe that pokes into the sump was loose, refitted everything was ok.
Came back from a ride today and the oil tank was almost empty again.
I,m thinking maybe the oil is not being sucked up by this small pipe  (with the ball bearing in situ) and returning to the oil tank,therefore the oil is overfilling the engine and discharging from the breather pipe.
Which suggests the ball bearing is sticking, I,m not sure any ideas as I’m parking the bike until the solution remedy is found.

I have since checked the filter behind this nut and found the filter to have half of it covered in debris, I’ve also cleaned the ball and spring

[sean]

did you check your oil tank return flow ?                                             
have you checked the cork on the cam breather ?

[Mikey82]

Return flow was restricted when I checked but that may have been lack of oil drained from tank after run….
The cork on the cam breather is like new and tight fit

[sean]

need more info .....
any work been done recently ?
when was the motor last rebuilt ?
are you burning oil ?

[CheeserBeezer]

Maybe the sump gauze is restricting flow into the sump. This has happened to another forum member. Obviously there are risks, but you can run the bike for a short time without the filter in situ.

[sean]

have you checked the oil pump ...are all the fastners tight and the gasket in good condition ? might be time to strip the pump and check for wear internally
How many miles have been put on the motor since its rebuild ?

[Angus]

My A10 (the profile bike) does this randomly. Its very rare, usually after I have left it for a while and its wet sumped. It have a ‘new type’ sump plate with a drain, so I drain the oil, put the plug back in and start her. 9 times out of 10 all is well, quickly getting a good return to the oil tank. BUT occasionally I get a return to the oil tank and pumping oil out of the breather, which keeps going until the oil tank is dry (only got that far once). Usual fix is take the sump plate off and have a poke around, never noticed a stuck ball in the return pipe or anything else amiss. Put it back together and she behaves. She has never done this when she has been used recently. Hard to fix when you can not repeat the fault.

[groily]

Just another (unwelcome and hope not) possibility if other checks reveal nothing and straws have to be clutched:
I had pretty much the same problem when the transverse pin that stops the ball in the scavenge pipe from ascending up the pipe broke / fell out and the ball got sucked to the bend at the top, reducing / cutting off the return flow. Can't remember exactly how far the ball should move upwards, but not that far.
Not a nice job and not sure if can be done just with the sump plate off. I had mine apart to do it which also gave me the chance to ensure no air leak where the pipe is attached to the c/case, which is I suppose another possibility.

[JulianS]

What was the debris on the filter in the PRV? This could give some indication of wear in your engine.

Is the oil return pipe crushed or otherwise damaged?

I had similar symptoms with my bike when the oil seal in the outer timing cover of the SRM end feed conversion was damaged.

[Swarfcut]

 It's an imbalance between the flow and return systems which operate independently although sharing a common oil pump which is really two pumps in the same body. The return side has a greater pumping capacity than the supply side, and most of the time the oil returns to the tank and the sump runs essentially "dry", the normal running state. Too much oil in the sump and it vents from the breather.

 So the root cause can be anything allowing too much oil into the engine..... to something stopping oil being returned in a greater volume than the supply. That's about it.

 There is enough on the forum about the vagaries of the system and it is a case of working methodically through every component part.
 
 Julian's problem would be a case of too much oil being supplied via the failed seal, I suppose a similar problem with the PRV (big nut) could result in unregulated over supply and checking this as a first step is as good a place to start as any. The pick up pipe ball valve needs to be free and a dose of carb cleaner is worth a punt. 
 
 In theory the scavenge side will always clear any oil delivered, restricted or not, due to the greater capacity of the return side. In practice this ain't necessarily so.

 Swarfy.

[chaterlea25]

Hi All,
If the sh1t on the PRV screen  is metallic then the pump has pushed the remainder of  it into the crankshaft main and big end bearings
Along its way it will have damaged the oil pump too.

As only a part of the tale has been told, its time to get the whole story from Mikey.

John

[Mikey82]

Apologies for the delay I had problems logging in 🙈

To update:
The 1963 GF was rebuilt in 1985 and left standing dry stored until I bought it last year, I had mag overhauled and bits and pieces not connected to engine.
I’ve since ridden it 1500 miles with no problems, changing the oil every 300 miles 20w 50 oil
Suddenly started to get oil gushing (yes gushing) out of the engine breather above the crankcase behind the clutch LHS bike.

I’ve since removed cleaned pump ( original pump not SRM)  checked return pipes by removing the return flexible pipe and blowing through, also blowing from crankcase flexible return pipe to the return in the oil tank.
Checked scavenge pipe ball is moving up and down and is free.
Removed checked cleaned sump gauze (original sump and mesh filter)
Sprayed carb cleaner through pump on the return sides check clear.
Checked top hat breather for any forward and aft movement (cork gasket) no movement by hand but if forced with pliers approx less than half a mm.
I’ve removed and cleaned the Pressure relief valve and found some small white bits that looked like wet dust on the filter.
I refilled 5 1/2 pints oil and tried again, good return flow, all went well just a small amount of spitting out of breather.
Left for an hour drained sump and removed 1 litre of oil from sump and put back in oil tank, started bike and was ok for a minute then suddenly lots of oil purging from breather, not so much returning to oil tank.
Left for another hour and 3/4 litre from sump again.
I’ve since removed pump and will send off for bench testing rather than spend £340 on a new pump if not needed, I m considering replacing PRV or maybe just the ball and spring.
Appreciate any help Thankyou.

[BagONails]

Sounds like you are on the right track suspecting the oil pump if it's wet sumping that volume of oil, that quickly, then noticeably not returning as much to tank whilst starting to chuck it out of the breather, there must be an issue with the scavenge circuit it would seem. Get the pump checked and try again. As has been said it may not be the pump but seems most likely culprit. 

[Swarfcut]

  A bit late now as the pump is off, but leaving the bike to stand, oil tank full, sump plate off  and timing cover removed would have allowed any leakage other than internally via pump and bearings to be observed.

 Failed pump gasket, loose pump, hairline cracks, poor mating surfaces and porous, failing pump body would be things to look for, plus leakage from the pump drive spindle....there is no oil seal on these pumps. It looks to be draining down pretty quickly on just standing, more than expected.

 With the pump off, the anti wet sump ball valve can be felt with a matchstick pushed drown the oil hole closest to the timing bush..... You should feel the ball move and return under light spring pressure. Treat it to a dose of carb cleaner. Failure here allows drain down, so stuck open or you may find it has even been removed. That explains emptying of the oil tank on standing..... But not the poor return.

 Flow and return are metered by the differing pumping capacities of the supply and scavenge circuits, but only if all oil goes through the pump. So bypassing the pump on the supply side overwhelms the scavenge side and all the oil ends up in the sump.. ... as does any failure to scavenge.

 Swarfy.

[chaterlea25]

Hi Mikey,
Agreeing with Swarfy, Plus this,
What type of pump gasket is fitted and is there a fibre washer under the front stud?
The fibre washer is probably the stupidest idea ever????
The faces of the two locations on the crankcase are level, so should be the rear seating faces of the pump
The chances of finding a gasket and fibre washer the same thickness and compressability is very remote!!
Get a one piece gasket (A65  type) from the ebay seller in the other oil posts or SRM.
Remove the studs from the crankcase and make absolutely sure there are no raised areas around the studs or damage to the sealing faces..
Now refit the pump and add oil to the tank, Also remove the PRV, make a mug of tea and sit and watch if theres oil leaking out of the pump itself or through it and out the PRV (Turn the crank to tdc)

John