Author Topic: 12v the big question  (Read 3313 times)

Offline chaz

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12v the big question
« on: 18.10. 2010 23:12 »
Ive looked through many web sites and dealers pages in search for the answer.
1956 A10 looking to convert to 12v, negative earth system, possibly Boyer ignition but which one, or is there a better option
around the same price as Interspan too expensive, or is a Hawker ok?
Ive tried a twin Hawker Cyclone dry battery set up on a road rocket but is there any advantage or disadvantage against a wet cell battery ,
Generator whats best
finally is there a loom available or is it a case of stripping back and modifying? does any wre need upgrading?

few years ago I did this on a A7 but cant find the paperwork now
allways willing to learn
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Offline BSA_54A10

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Re: 12v the big question
« Reply #1 on: 19.10. 2010 01:11 »
Sealed batteries are a must on motorcycles and you will not get a better one than the Cyclones as they do not make complete spiral batteries to fit motorcycles ( we are too cheap to make it worthwhile ).

ignitions , no. Boyers are the cheap & nasty alternative and they only get better & more expensive from there on.
If you fit a Boyer, remove all of the cheap & nasty bullet terminals and replace them with better quality crimps or solder them. They will give you grief the only variable is when.

As for looms I can not find any that I would be bothered fitting.
The cloth covered "original" looking ones don't quite fit and only come as a mail loom which is the bit that dose not usually need replaceing . The bits that give you grief , headlamp sub looms etc are not usually supplied and no loom has been improved to have a common earth fitted.
I always make my own. They will not look original but otoh they will work properly and never fail.
I also use relays and spade terminals in gang blocks and run separate earths to the head lamp & tail lamp.

Fit a Led tail lamp to  make life easer for your poor old generator
Bike Beesa
Trevor

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Re: 12v the big question
« Reply #2 on: 19.10. 2010 10:17 »
You're going to trust your dynamo then Chaz? Or is it that you haven't got a mag?
Agree sealed batteries are good, although I have some that aren't and haven't had any problems. Nor have I yet had probs - maybe just my good luck so far though - with Boyer ignition.
The Boyer or any other system will take a bit of power, so I'd say your charging is going to have to be right up to the mark if you want lights as well on a 60W dynamo. You will be able to get a bit more than 60W without overloading the field (up to about 80 in fact) if you retain the standard armature and field coil and just use, eg, a DVR regulator at 12v. If you swap the dynamo guts for fine-wound bits sold as so-called '12v' by the likes of Feked (they are nice for maintaining low cut-in rpm) you'll be limited to those 60W. If, say, the Boyer or equivalent is going to use 25 to 30 watts or a couple of amps plus (I'm guessing but it has to be around there). . . . I'd say it's all a bit marginal, and maybe an Alton alternator would be a good idea if your pocket's deep.
At 12v your wires could be thinner and your fuse(s) if you have any lower-rated because there will be half the amps flowing around. So no wiring changes needed. Just battery and bulbs. Plus whatever loop and switchgear is needed for whatever modern ignition system you end up with. But a mag would be my first choice, by a country mile.
Bill

Offline Pete Gray

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Re: 12v the big question
« Reply #3 on: 19.10. 2010 11:21 »
I've stuck with 6 volt on the A7 although I very rarely ride at night so lighting isn't a huge consideration.
But I fitted one of the Burlen dry cell batteries which  sits there demanding absolutely no attention and keeps it's charge from the standard dynamo even if the bike isn't used over the winter. I often ride with the headlight on in daylight especially in traffic so the demand is reasonably high. The battery sits inside a dummy case which looks the part as well.
The regulator is a Lucas original which was bought new and fitted maybe 25 years ago !
I think I've had the Burlen set up for 5 years now, no trouble at all !

http://www.amalcarb.co.uk/ProductDetail.aspx?id=1225

Pete

1961 Swinging arm A7
2000 BMW R1100R

Offline iansoady

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Re: 12v the big question
« Reply #4 on: 19.10. 2010 11:22 »
Agree with Trevor & Bill. I use sealed gel batteries which fit inside a rubber imitation battery case - I had 12V on my Velo and currently 6V on the A10 - like these .

Making a loom is very easy provided you can solder (which is easily learnt). I know some people use crimps but unless you have an industrial quality crimper, solder is better - and more original if that matters to you.

Vehicle Wiring Products have everything you need.
Ian.
1962 Golden Flash (arrived)
1955 Velo Viper/Venom (departed)
2004 Triumph Tiger 955i (staying)

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Re: 12v the big question
« Reply #5 on: 19.10. 2010 12:05 »
I don't have much "positive" advice.

Running a Boyer on a dynamo system is a hopeless losing battle.

Any ignition system, except maybe points and coil, will probably give you many more failures than a good magneto.

Offline BSA_54A10

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Re: 12v the big question
« Reply #6 on: 19.10. 2010 12:16 »
And unless you solder regularly, crimping will give you a better joint.
Most "occasional " users of the soldering iron, get the wires too hot, use too much solder and let it run too far up the wire.
I am using a cheap uninsulated terminal crimper with no problems after I shaved a bit off so that it closed a bit further than it used to as the new wire is a lot thinner than the old stuff and the terminals seem to get shorter with every order.
I also have a ratchet crimper which is a bit better as it gives a consistent crimp every time.
Add 2 pieces of heat shrink and you have a joint that will out last you.

Do not use the insulated terminals with the blue or red sheaths unless you remove the sheath and crimp it with the uninsulated terminal crimper. If you do so then the blue ones will come closer to fitting the old Lucas terminals but as stated previous I use spades in gang blocks.

As for batteries Pressure Valve Regulated lead Acid ( PVRLA ) will give you the best service but like most things that are good quality & value they will not be cheap.
Next best are the spiral wound gel cells ( Cyclone )
After that there is a big gap way down to rectangular gel cells
And finally there are standard wet cells  but if you pay less than £ 30 for it then you will have bought trouble and the battery will fail mechanically.
If you are going to go the electronic ignition route then a very good battery is an absolute must.
No joy being 100 miles from home in a heavy down pour and your £ 10 battery collapses so you have a long wait in the rain to be rescued.
Also you will have to replace the regulator with a modern solid state one as the old mechanical regulators are not up to the job.
They were designed to do nothing more than keep the battery topped up and have great difficulty handeling both ignition & lighting.
Bike Beesa
Trevor

Offline MG

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Re: 12v the big question
« Reply #7 on: 19.10. 2010 12:37 »
I have recently exhaustively discharged the 6V Cyclone battery in the A7 (over a week or so) with a stuck brake light switch (crap, I put the canvas cover over the bike and didn't notice the brake light was on *problem*)
I was surprised that it still would take and hold a charge after that. I can't tell what damage has been caused though, because I haven't measured the residual capacity, but it appears to be fine.
Great stuff, most of the cheapo lead-gel-batteries would be up the swanee after such a (mis)treatment I guess.
1955 A7 Shooting Star
1956 A10 Golden Flash
1961 Matchless G12 CSR

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Offline andy2565

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Re: 12v the big question
« Reply #8 on: 19.10. 2010 16:12 »
i'm not sure but with the modern led bulbs these days,why not stay 6v,they use less amps and dont blow,and a well built mag is always better than electronic,dealer told me the other day tahat the guys who run pazon actually worked for boyer before moving to NZ,and have developed the ignition's a bit more since leaving.
near wolves uk,will keep riding as long as can stay upright,tribsa,tt500,2xJAP grasstrackers+jawa.gold flash.triumph metisse,and others.

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Re: 12v the big question
« Reply #9 on: 19.10. 2010 17:42 »
Oh boy, yes, to Trevor's point, you can't get a half-decent battery on the cheap.
Good makes cost money but are much better value. I was quoted 230 Euros for a good new one for my modern, although a Chinese thing could be had for half that, and it's the same all the way down the range. I've had good service from Bosch ones (wherever they might be made), and from Japanese ones (ditto), and I always get the biggest amp-hour capacity that'll go in the space. Can't remember getting one that seemed any good for less than about 60 Euros, call it 50 GBP or, these days, an enormous sum in USD.
I have never used Cyclons myself, but for no good reason and friends have them. I do believe, though, that their internal resistance is very low and that they can therefore load a dynamo's field coil rather heavily for a bit if part-discharged. Quite what their ability is to withstand a good flattening, I don't know - but sounds good Marcus!

Was being polite TT about running electronic ign on a dynamo machine - a Boyer or equivalent will stretch early alternator systems to the limit and beyond, let alone a dynamo: where I've got elec ign I have high-output single phase alternators and appropriate regulation/rectification. Horses for courses. Maybe one of these expensive BTH spark generators is the best non-K series option for a dynamo bike, but hell of a price. As are Altons if you look at it the other way about and start with a decent charging system.
My recipe for happiness is: dynamo and DVR2 (preferably at 12v) and a mag plus 35W halogen light; standard alternator (110W or so) for standard coil ignition and halogen 35 max 45W light; high output stator plus Podtronics reg/rect for electronic ign, with any light you like.
Apart from a recent unexpected condenser failure on one mag that had been expensively rebuilt (Sod's law but sorted fast with a ?/I hope better ceramic condenser fingers crossed touch wood), no electrical problems in a lot of miles. There's just no virtue in running at the outer end of the capability of fragile systems, IMHO. The memsahib (the putative rescue trailer driver) agrees. It's worth a modest investment to avoid that *****-off look that comes over the fair features when she sees my mobile calling up reinforcements.
Bill

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Re: 12v the big question
« Reply #10 on: 19.10. 2010 18:07 »
you can't get a half-decent battery on the cheap........

a Boyer or equivalent will stretch early alternator systems to the limit and beyond, let alone a dynamo:  .....


My recipe for happiness is: dynamo and DVR2 (preferably at 12v) and a mag plus 35W halogen light.........

Sounds like you've learned the hard way too!


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Re: 12v the big question
« Reply #11 on: 19.10. 2010 18:10 »
why not stay 6v,they use less amps and dont blow,

They use double the amps.  Staying 6V might still be a good idea though.

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Re: 12v the big question
« Reply #12 on: 19.10. 2010 18:32 »
too b***** true TT. You and me both.

No short-cuts wiv the 'lectrickery has been my motto these past quite a few years, and it works.
But I was caught out by a mag the other week, and wasn't happy as they're the one thing I swear oaths on . . .
What I'd like to know is what is the  tech spec for an ultimate capacitor, if anyone knows. My failure was at about 15000km with a RIFA PME271M series (metallised something or another), I put in one of the little jobbies from Independent Ignition Supplies - unmarked and it's great so far (only 1000km to date though), and Bob Kiser of Podtronics fame says you need various specs I won't repeat here which the IIS one may match.

But for all that, an actual spec is hard to come by . . . . there is quite a lot on especially the Velo owners forum, some from the Vincent people because they have their own probs with uneven firing (and precious few modern options with Miller dynamos) but despite all that I'm still not sure what AC voltage rating, voltage swing speed, dielectric etc is the most fail-safe . . . . Doug Wood in Pa. USA probably has an ideal spec, as does Dave Lindsley no doubt, and others who actually do their own rewinds, but I'm beginning to think it's a jealously-guarded trade secret. Get there in the end I expect, just a question of pestering people long enough and learning stuff.

What we really need is a modified K series with the cap. up the easy end. Not impossible, there's room just about, but if it was that easy I s'pose Uncle Joe would have done it! Or would he?
Bill

Offline chaz

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Re: 12v the big question
« Reply #13 on: 19.10. 2010 18:47 »
on the chop, Im using standard acid battery, lucas rita ignition and a Japanese bike sealed reg/rec with home made loom, on something more 'standard' Im looking at a normal set up with the advantage of better lights  and stronger spark as mentioned first.
allways willing to learn
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Offline wilko

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Re: 12v the big question
« Reply #14 on: 19.10. 2010 22:46 »
200mf, 400v@6000v/u sec.