Author Topic: A10 oil filtering  (Read 8378 times)

Offline a10gf

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Re: A10 oil filtering
« Reply #30 on: 28.06. 2008 13:46 »
All this triggers my old idea. Looking at the filter fitted to my Yamaha XT 350, a very fine and very small mesh filter which seems to do the job perfectly. I think the same goes on XT650. The mesh must be 10 times finer than the original a10, should stop most, if not all, of any damaging particles (certainly does so in the Yamaha). It can be cleaned and kept "forever" if not damaged.

I have for years been thinking about making a container with fittings for some in-out hose connection for the A10. This would all in all be very small, and I think the return flow capacity would not suffer in any way.

I've had a large car-type filtersystem lying around for years, feel it's too big, ugly and difficult to fit properly anywhere, and need much longer hosing etc.

The envisaged filter enclosing would be around 5cm dia / 6cm long + hose connections protrubing.

Maybe worth investigating further? I already see a nice unobtrusive brass cannister fitted, polished and shiny  *smile*

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Online bsa-bill

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Re: A10 oil filtering
« Reply #31 on: 28.06. 2008 13:50 »
England Kev - these engines were designed with a filter, it is situated in the centre of the crank and needs cleaned out , not easy at all,  remember the engines were also designed before the today's readily available detergent oils.
A light detergent oil and a easily changed filter has got to be an improvement and was incorporated in later classic bikes by the designers.

All the best - Bill
All the best - Bill
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Offline jfligg

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Re: A10 oil filtering
« Reply #32 on: 29.06. 2008 13:26 »
Hi Mike
  First off I would like to say thanks for your extra effort on this topic... Cheers.  I think my biggest concern about a return inline filter is the over oiling to the rockers and the reduction of the amount of oil in the scavenge.  How would this be affected after longer running periods?  Would the sump eventually run dry?  This my fear.  I would think the likelyness of this hapening is low as if it happened to a few people you would hear about it on the various forums.  I am still running my Star Twin with out a filter and using a str 50w that is changed every 700 miles.  Once again Mike Thanks and keep up the good work. Jeff 

Offline Dynamo Regulators Mike

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Re: A10 oil filtering
« Reply #33 on: 01.07. 2008 15:33 »
a10gf, that Yammy filter is not so different in size to the WDB40 element, which is about 5cm long and 4cm diameter. Are they cheap and easy to get? If so would be interesting to see if it could be fitted into the Vokes canister; I was lucky to pick up one original element for just £2 recently but don't think they are generally easy to find (unless anyone knows different?). As you say much neater. Does this filter have a through hole or a plain end and it looks like paper?

jfligg, I am not with you with regard to a return line filter over oiling the rockers. But this would be the case if the rocker feed was taken off before the filter. On the A7/10 setup the rocker oil effectively adds oil to the sump, albeit after a delay while it finds its way from top to the sump plate. This will increase the tendency to wet sumping s the scavenge has more volume to cope with.

I have now compared the pump I have been taking the measurements with, with the one from my A10. They both show very similar volume flow. Scavenge about 40% higher than feed after careful comparison at 1500 rpm. I was surprised to see that the one from the bike had the 'petal' shaped teeth, whilst the initial test one has the 'involute' tooth shape, (see photo earlier in this thread). This appears to rule out the change as being for performance improvement.

Can't see where else to go to find an explanation for my smoky exhaust and oil consumption *conf*, unless the rocker feed on my machine is higher than it should be. I think I will fit the involute tooth pump back on the bike (the other appeared to have a flaw on one tooth which might be a weak area). See if that does make any difference on the bike. Then at least temporarily restrict the rocker flow to see if that changes things any.
Mike
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Offline dpaddock

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Re: A10 oil filtering
« Reply #34 on: 01.07. 2008 17:41 »
Mike is certainly doing good things, here!
I mentioned in my 25 May posting that I had significant sump oil after fitting and running with the Ducati filter. Actually, it was no more than I typically get (50 ml to 175 ml) and the filter can was full (100 ml). So drain-back is not a relevant factor.
Re rocker oil feed: the flow to the rockers is dictated by the size of the drillings in the banjo screws. The rockers really can't be "over-oiled" unless the return line gets severely restricted downstream from the tee. In which case, I'd expect to see oil spurting from the return line somewhere.
Incidentally, 1000 rpm on the pump in Mike's setup is 3200 engine rpm.
David
'57 Spitfire


Offline Dynamo Regulators Mike

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Re: A10 oil filtering
« Reply #35 on: 01.07. 2008 19:25 »
dpaddock, do you know what size the feed holes in the standard banjo bolts are? As I say, mine has a non-standard 'go-faster' rocker feed and I wonder if these are drilled the same.

You can't see it in the picture of my set up, but the lathe drives the pump worm via a gear as fitted to the crankshaft. So the speed of the lathe as given is equivalent to the engine crank speed.

Mike


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Offline a10gf

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Re: A10 oil filtering
« Reply #36 on: 01.07. 2008 23:31 »
Mike wrote
Quote
Does this filter have a through hole or a plain end and it looks like paper?

It's fed from the whole outside area trough the mesh, with a central outlet on one end, a springloaded bypass valve on the other. Very,very fine metal mesh. Available from any yamaha dealer afaik. And it's reusable, forever as I see it, just clean away whatever may have accumulated on the outside of it with a brush and some petrol. It's really a neat little device.

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Offline dpaddock

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Re: A10 oil filtering
« Reply #37 on: 02.07. 2008 12:23 »
"dpaddock, do you know what size the feed holes in the standard banjo bolts are? As I say, mine has a non-standard 'go-faster' rocker feed and I wonder if these are drilled the same."

Mike, the feed (radial) hole in the banjo screw is .046" (~3/64"). This is the orifice that determines the flow rate.

Pump drive noted. Thanks.

David
David
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Online RichardL

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Rocker Feed Banjo Bolts
« Reply #38 on: 14.08. 2008 18:08 »
"dpaddock, do you know what size the feed holes in the standard banjo bolts are? ....Mike, the feed (radial) hole in the banjo screw is .046" (~3/64"). This is the orifice that determines the flow rate.

Gents,

The radial holes in my banjo bolts are different from each other. One is larger (for feed, I assume) and one is quite small (for venting, I assume). Does this sound correct and, if so, does it matter which one is forward and which is rear?

Richard
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Offline Dynamo Regulators Mike

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Re: A10 oil filtering
« Reply #39 on: 14.08. 2008 19:18 »
Richard
I recently found out that the feed holes are differently sized on Goldies. Larger for exhaust I believe because it runs so much hotter. So this could also be the case for twins? Is one smaller or larger than 3/64"?
Back to packing for the International, leaving 8 a.m. tomorrow, and the eather looks ok for once
Mike
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wdco42

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Re: A10 oil filtering
« Reply #40 on: 06.09. 2008 20:02 »
Hello,

I have recently seen a friend's 850 Commando, and the bike has in original equipment a cartridge filter, like the one you speek. The interesting detail is that it is fitted BEHIND the gearbox, under the bottom oil tank level, and not in an upper position, althought there would be a lot of place... (not speaking about the mud there and the difficulty to change it)

The idea is that Norton's people had the same troubles as your's, and even with upgraded, and simpler (in comparison with the A10) oiling system, there was no other solution to locate the filter, and make it work properly...

I intend to fit a filter, the cartridge type (I'm french, and the cartridge is the same as 2CV Citroën), but will try to locate it as it is allways "submerged" by oil.

Cheers, Claude

Offline dpaddock

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Re: A10 oil filtering
« Reply #41 on: 07.09. 2008 23:01 »
It matters not where the oil filter is vertically installed; this is a closed positive displacement system.
We've already discussed the over-oiling rockers matter - it doesn't exist as long as you are using 3/64-inch diameter radial rocker banjo bolts. [Yes, Gold Stars use a larger diameter exhaust bolt feed, but that's because the Goldie exhaust valve is bigger and more severely punished in racing duty (its recommended racing life in this service is about 20 hours).]
So, unless you are going racing, stick with the factory bits.
The Ducati-type filter fitted to my A10 is mounted in the return line after the rocker feed, up high, where I can get to it. It works fine.
David

David
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Offline alanp

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Re: A10 oil filtering
« Reply #42 on: 22.11. 2009 11:03 »
I know this is an old thread but it is of interest to me since I'm determined to make the best technical effort in rebuilding the A10/big valve engine I've acquired.
The first point I want to raise concerns the rocker feed banjo bolt hole diameter which, dpaddock stated on 2 July 08, should be .046" diameter. Fitted to my engine they are both close to 2mm (.080"). This represent 3 times the flow volume by area!!! Now I know the scavenge side of the pump can cope with clearing this from the sump but this engine has a history of consuming oil and smoking so maybe it would put excess oil into the rocker box and pass more oil than usual down the valve guides. I'm not being cheeky but dpaddock are you absolutely sure it's .046"dia ?
The second point concerns the after market filters fitted to the return line. There was a comment I think by someone about this increasing the return pressure and hence flow to the rockers, but I thought that the line from the filter return connects to the oil tank return at the same point as the original pipework and hence the rocker feed line is after the filter and not affected by back pressure at the filter inlet. Having not yet bought the filter kit, could someone clarify this for me please, I certainly don't want to increase oil pressure to the rocker box!
Thanks
Alan
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