Electronic Ignition, Auto advance, and pinions.

[GoldenFailure]

Hello. I'm sure this will be met with much booing and derision, but I cant/dont want to deal with magnetos, and am planning on swapping it out for the k2f magneto body replacement with a pazon ignition from Paul Goffs site.

My question is, what do I do with the auto advance mechanism (plunger golden flash) can I take it off and leave the fibre(?) gear in place, can it be locked in a certain place or is there a fixed replacement gear available?

I fitted a pazon to my bullet, but has anyone fitted one to their a10 who can offer any words of wisdom? I have searched older posts, plenty of mention of electronic ignition, but cant find anything specific about the auto advance gizmo, or details on the changeover.

Also, is the general consensus that an e3l dynamo can keep a 12v battery charged (obviously without halogens being on all the time) and what size (amp hour) battery would be a good idea?

Any input appreciated.

[muskrat]

 G'day GF,
              A solid pinion is needed. I think Burton's have alloy ones for about 35pound. I haven't tried a Pazon but haven't heard any bad reports.
I run DVR2 to convert the 6 volt of the E3L to 12 volt. 4amp battery works for me.
Cheers

[bsa-bill]

Hi GF
I fitted the same set up yours to my A10 project, so far I think it's great.

I bought a replacement manual pinion for min, an alloy one, IIRC it was from Lyfords but I'm sure other dealers also have them.

Fitting was fairly straight forward, only thing I can think of that might trip anyone up is the rotation of the magneto, the K2F is anticlockwise rotation, however the instructions for the Pazon refers to the rotation viewed from the other end of the magneto so you need to follow the timing instruction as for a clockwise rotation.

[kiwipom]

hi guys, why do we need to replace the auto advance? as far as i was aware if engine is timed at fully advanced then when stopped ignition is retarded so making easied starting after which is thrown into the fully advanced position so where is the problem? please correct me if i have this wrong,cheers,Bob

[trevinoz]

Bob,
              The theory is that the spark is gradually advanced according to the engine revs, being controlled by spring tension and bob weights, until full advance is reached at a pre determined range.
However, old age and wear will probably cause the unit to act as you surmised.
Electronic units control the advance by witch doctory.
If you leave an auto advance unit on an electronic system, the timing will be too retarded at start.
An easy fix is to tack weld the advance unit in a fixed position.

  Trev.

[kiwipom]

hi guys/Trev, thanks for the explanation,so how much of a problem is starting with too much retarded ignition,cheers, Bob

[terryk]

Hmmm look at all those wires. I am a fan of magnetos as long as they have been reconditioned. Magnetos have been very reliable to me over the years but can cause dramas if they haven't been overhauled.

[beezermacc]

I'm with terryk on this one, but I would be wouldn't I!? Maybe the debate magneto v electronic is a discussion for another thread.

[Brian]

Right then, someone has to stick their neck out and get it chopped off so it may as well be me.

I'll take a maggy over any sort of electronic ignition any day. A full electronic set up may have a slight advantage with the advance curve but other than that a maggy is far superior.

Much more reliable. If your maggy is rebuilt properly it will work for years and is totally independant of any batteries, CVC units etc etc.

So there 

[bsa-bill]

If your maggy is rebuilt properly

Ah well now there the rub ( as some bloke once said)
Yes I was reluctant to go off magneto, but I have had two refurbished ( at he same place) both of them work adequately on my Flash but both are equally unreliable at starting the higher compression Rocket.
There must be thousands of Rockets out there that start just fine on Magneto, but mine wont (my mates won't either) and I blame the magneto rebuild, somehow it is good enough for a Flash but not anything higher compression, there is a good article in last months Real Classic by PUB re- magnetos which might have a bearing on this, to do with a/r units where by retarding the spark you actualy weaken it somewhat ( past max flux) you guys that are experts can explain this better than I can. She found an old American Magneto where to retard it you turned the whole thing thereby preserving best spark.
 Faced with getting a refurbed Magneto refurbed again I plumped for electronic as the bike is for riding not showing, Electronic has to be switched on and off and needs a battery - agreed, I was concerned at the prospect of leaving it on and coming back to a flat battery, two things first you have to switch it off to stop the engine so no problem there unless you stall it, secong I did manage to switch it on and got distracted to other things, went back next day to find it still switched on but battery was fine over 12 volt.

I will at some point in the future have the magneto checked out at another place (tests that I have done would seem to point to use of condenser not fully up to spec), but to be honest starting has been transformed from cardiac testing black art to first or second kick.

[beezermacc]

I suppose, as with any trade or profession, some people do a better job than others. Nearly all the magneto restorers use the same capacitor which seems to be utterly reliable in all K2F applications. You may not be able to see what capacitor you have if it has been potted into the armature. I have a RGS lookalike and my mate has a Super Rocket and they start fine. The manual adv/ret is an issue though. If you fully retard it you will weaken your spark. The trick is to fit both! (manual cam ring housing and auto ATD). This means you don't have to manually retard the ignition when starting as the ATD takes care of that, preserving the position of maximum flux in the magneto. Then with the manual adv/ret you can retard it slightly on the lever if you encounter pinking under load.

[GoldenFailure]

Hi all.

Many thanks to Muskrat and BSA Bill for the advice, thats just what I needed to know, cheers!

Shame about the inevitable descent into arguing the case for magnetos, I love electronic ignition, 36,000 miles of perfect starting and running on the bullet, to me they make old bikes into practical forms of everyday transport, but I would never consider dropping into a thread started by someone wanting help to fix their magneto and proudly declare that electronic ignition is far superior.

I know I'm new on here, and I think this forum is brilliant, people seem smarter and friendlier than on the couple of other forums I've used, but why this constant railing against positive technology? Ive read posts on this forum where people have said "If you want electronic ignition, buy a modern bike" presumably because of maintaining originality and the experiance of riding an old bike, but when these bikes were new, the owners probably read books, talked to people wiser than themselves, and cogitated over problems to keep their bikes running, all healthy pastimes, but longwinded. Surely spannering with the help of multiple sources of experiance at the other end of a forum is a good use of non original technology meaning we can spend more time riding, just like electronic ignition.

Just my opinion, mind.

[bsa-bill]

 Hi Golden Failure

Shame about the inevitable descent into arguing the case for magnetos,

yep but all are entitled to their opinion, we do manage to debate stuff without arguing most of the time, I can see both sides and would not fit electronic to my Flash which is pretty stock and entered into shows, but my Rocket Gold Flash is for riding in today's traffic often to work so has indicators , modern sticky tyres and 12 volt electrics, if others think this is something to argue about well - life's to short

[Brian]

I think discussion about the various things that we can or choose to fit to our bikes is a good thing, it would be very boring if we all did exactly the same with our bikes.

This is why this forum is so good, it gives us all the chance to read about what others have done with their bikes and what works and what doesnt.

"If you want electronic ignition, buy a modern bike" I have to say to a certain degree I agree with this comment. I'm not against modifications that improve the running or reliablity of our bikes but I cant see the reason to replace something with an object that may (or may not) be inferior. The large majority of A10's still being ridden today and that do the most mileage are still running magneto's. Now by all means fit electronic ignition to your bike if that is what you choose and I hope it works well for you  as I like to see the bikes being ridden but be aware that your bikes electrics, ignition and all lighting is now 100% dependant on the generater and charging system, remember modern bikes have high output alternaters, not a 60 year old 60w generater. If you have a crook battery, forget to turn the lights off or even have something as simple as a blown fuse, you will walk home.

I've been riding bikes with magneto's for 40 years now and have only ever had one failure and that was my fault. I restored a Tr***ph and didnt get the armature rewound, it melted and "glued" itself firmly in the body, took some getting out. Ever since then whenever I buy a bike or restore one I always get the maggy rewound, even if the bike is freshly restored and comes with receipts for a maggy overhaul I pull the maggy off and get the armature done.

If there is anything that can be considerd a"trick" with magneto's its finding someone who can rebuild them properly. There are a lot of magneto specialist's out there that are no good so to anyone considering getting theit magneto overhauled do some homework, find someone who has a sound reputation and offers warranty on their work.

GoldernFailure if you choose to fit electronic ignition I hope it works well for you, I certainly want you to have a bike that runs well but it is not a "magic bullet", it will not transform your bike and cure all problems. If you have problems with carburettion or any mechanical issues they will still be there.

[muskrat]

 Yep Brian has full merit in what he says.
But I'm on the other side of the fence. i have elect ign on all 3 BSA's and luv it. One day I'll put the '51 back to std with a magie. I prefer go to show so will do almost anything to keep'em going.
Cheers