Author Topic: wiring question  (Read 1449 times)

Online bsa-bill

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wiring question
« on: 08.08. 2014 18:43 »
Hi all
waiting for paint to dry (harden) so turning my attentions to bike 2 RGF it's in need of a proper wiring system as bits have been added from time to time (indicators, flashers, electronic regulator (now to be replaced with a DVR2) and Pazon ignition), system is 12 volt and I intend to change to negative earth (using LEDs)
So Ill use the original loom for the heavier wiring to ammeter, dynamo and battery but will need additional wire (in colours) I have my eye on some wire advertised as 1mm auto wire 16A, 1.0mm 32/0.20 thinwall.
My question is this wire suitable 1.0mm seems kind of fine and does 32/0.20 mean 32 strands of 0.2 mm thick.

I'm a bit more familiar with gauge for thickness
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Online morris

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Re: wiring question
« Reply #1 on: 08.08. 2014 21:30 »
Depends on how you fuse it Bill. You wouldn't use a 16 amp fuse, as on 12V that would put out 192W before it blows. To stay on the safe side, I'd use a 5 amp fuse, for which 1mm² wire should do. On 5 amps you can still hook up a total of nearly 60 watts which you'll never get to if you intend to use LED's.
I got mine fused at 5A with a regular bulb at the back and halogens upfront and a Pazon ignition all on 12V. Works fine.
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Online bsa-bill

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Re: wiring question
« Reply #2 on: 08.08. 2014 22:00 »
Thanks Morris I'll get some ordered up
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Online chaterlea25

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Re: wiring question
« Reply #3 on: 08.08. 2014 22:22 »
Hi All,
Morris, a small correction on your mathemathics regarding fuses
The fuse designation ie. 16A will carry 16amps indefinitely, the "fusing factor"  then comes into play
typically multiply by 1.6 times the rating for a fast result on a "normal" fuse
(less current overload = longer time)

Bill,
even though 1sq mm. will work for the bulk of the wiring, it is a bit fragile and may be prone to vibration fracturing, I would use 1.5sq
The second consideration is volt drop, the bigger the wire the less the volt drop
(lots of maths involved )
The biggest causes of volt drop though are connections,  *eek*
so plan the wiring to reduce these to a minimum

HTH
John
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Online morris

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Re: wiring question
« Reply #4 on: 08.08. 2014 23:03 »
Got a point John, but mathematics was (and still is *sad2*) my weakest point, so I like to keep things simple. On our kinda bikes, a volt more or less don't do much harm I guess. ;)

OTOH I remember fitting a map reading light in my first car. I used some wire I had lying around which was about three hairs thick. When visiting some friends I wanted to show them my new fitment, and when I switched it on, the wire burnt away and the car's interior completely filled up with smoke. Talking about life's most embarrassing moments... *eek*
'58 BSA A 10 SA
'52 BSA A 10 Plunger
'55 MORRIS ISIS
The world looks better from a motorbike
Belgium

Online chaterlea25

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Re: wiring question
« Reply #5 on: 08.08. 2014 23:39 »
HI Morris
LOL *ex* *ex*

One morning my better half was using a hair dryer when the flex went faulty near the plug outlet
It burned and fizzeled away merrily without blowing the plugtop fuse, until I got there and grabbed the plug from the outlet  *eek* *eek* *eek*

John
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline BSA_54A10

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Re: wiring question
« Reply #6 on: 09.08. 2014 02:21 »
And now to really muddy the waters.
Most glass fuses bourht throught the empire & related dominions ( Play Rule Brittania in your head ) will be rated at it's constant load ie 10A will carry 10A +10% =11A forever.
A modern blade type fuse is rated according to to the USA system so a 10A fuse will blow at 10A +/- 10% so the instant it sees somting between 9 & 11 A pop goes the weasel .

AS for voltage drop, it is vitally important particularly if you are running 6V.
This is because most loads are Watts and a Watt is not racist and cares not if it is getting its Watts via 6V,12V,24V or 240V for that matter.
So if you loose 1 V at a corroded terminal. then another at a bad switch and a third at the headlamp socket the poor old 30Watt globe is going to gobble up 10A in place of its supposed 5A and if you have used 5A wire then it will get hot ( Amps = heat ) and thus create more resistance thus dropping the voltage even lower in a never ending spiral till the smoke escapes or your fuse blows.
Not too much trouble if you are running a maggy but a long push if you have fitted any type of electronic ignition.

Here at IR Wiring ( Idiot Resistant ) when we are occasionally rewiring bikes we always use wire at least 50% higher rated than the required size plus break down the loom into individual fused circuits and fit relays which usually means your old faulty switches can be made reliable again.

When I ride tha M20 to rallys and night rides every one asks what I have fitted as they candles seem to be way too bright for a tired old 6V system.
the answer is my headlamp globe actually gets a full 6V off the battery and 7 off the generator.
I have worked on bikes where the voltage at the headlamp was down as low as 2 V giving off a dull yellow light  that makes a 6V VW Combi blinker look bright.
Bike Beesa
Trevor

Online bsa-bill

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Re: wiring question
« Reply #7 on: 09.08. 2014 09:14 »
thanks guys plenty to digest there.

John I didn't think of the physical strength of the wire so good point, I'm looking at some wire on the dreaded (but handy if you live in the sticks) Ebay, comes in lots of colour variations (this I like)  at 1mm in 5 metre lengths 1.5 in 100 metres so might have to look around a bit more.
Probably better if it could be bought by the metre as even 5 metre of say black (earth) would soon be used.
I've still to draw up a diagram so a bit of time yet.
Got some 4.3 mm spade connectors which might be tidier than the 6.?mm ones, but I'm thinking of using the empty space left by the regulator in the toolbox so might can fit in a fuse box/connector block in there.
All in the planning stage at the mo
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Offline a101960

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Re: wiring question
« Reply #8 on: 09.08. 2014 09:37 »
Bill, Vehicle wiring products sell cable by the meter http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/VWP-onlinestore/home/homepage.php
John

Offline BSA_54A10

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Re: wiring question
« Reply #9 on: 09.08. 2014 12:39 »
The regulator box is an excellent place to fit a fuse box ( guess where we fit ours ).
We use spade connector fuse boxes and they come in a variety of configurations.
We usually use either a 1 in 4 out or a 2 in 6 out.
This means exactly what it says the one feed ( in ) wire  is connected to all 4 out wires thus you can now split your wiring into 4 seperate circuits without resorting to things like 4 way bullets.
The other one has two feed wires in each one splitting into 3 individual circuits .
With this one, we feed the battery directly into one side thus giving us an unswitched circuit for the stop lamp & horn
The second input goes through a switch for head lamps tail lamps instrument lights & ignition ( coil ignition is being used ).
For the battery connection we use a T shaped two pin blade plug so the + & - don't get mixed up with these wires going directly to the battery where they are bolted tight then painted over with liquid electrical tape thus making a water proof seal and no corrosion ever, hence we can be sure there is full voltage going into the loom. This makes a really big difference .
Where ever possible we use blade connectors in blocks to join different parts of the loom together which work a lot better than the old solder on bullets and make servicing a lot easier.
Using gang blocks ( terminal blocks if you prefer ) means that you use uninsulated crimp terminals and as these pierce through the insulation you will no longer suffer the bare wire poking out of the bullet shorting onto the frame as the insulation gets old & starts to shrink back up the wire .
A little piece of glued heat shrink ( we use 2 pieces ) pulled back down over the crimp and the joint becomes virtually waterproof and vibration proof.
The earth wire is always fitted into the horizontal terminal so for the battery connection the top of the T is + and at the tail lamp we use a horizontal + 2 vertical configured plug to deliver a good earth to the tail lamp with the horizontal connection being the + same goes for the headlamp loom connection.
The head lamp gets a double throw relay with the low beam being the normally connected terminal and the high beam the switched terminal thus if anything goes wrong the relay always connects the low beam.
We use full 4.5mm terminal through out including all relays so if any relay fails a short jumper lead with two male terminals can go from the live input terminal of the relay plug to the item being powered ( bypassing the relay & switch ) so if some thing goes wrong you can ride home with lights and for some we have put a little dab of white paint on the terminal to be jumped so they know what to do.
And we always fuse both the battery and the generator so if there is a dead short some where when you are riding the full generator out put is not trying to melt your wires and burn your bike.
For alternator bikes we fuse both sides of the battery & the output side of the rectifier for the same reason.

If this sounds confusing, it isn't once you have the wires laying on the frame and the only special tools you need are a crimper for uninsulated terminals and a terminal block tool which is a feeler gauge you never use ground down to a 1" long 2mm wide tang which you shove into the terminal block to push down the locating barb and remove the wire you put in the wrong place. It is also useful for recycling terminal blocks salvaged from old cars
Bike Beesa
Trevor

Online bsa-bill

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Re: wiring question
« Reply #10 on: 09.08. 2014 13:04 »
I don't mind reading anything several times to get it straight in my mind so many many thanks Trevor for your input, I'll pick it apart over a cuppa.
several things you mention I had in mind - terminal box/fusebox, it's comforting to know the professionals do the same.
Spade connectors - yes also thought about multi connectors for some bits.
Crimping - I crimped the spades on this bike when I wired it having read that soldered on there was a risk of the wire fracturing, don't know if my crimping is sub standard or my crimper is not good enough (it's not a cheapy) but I had a lot of wires pulling out, my previous bike I soldered on and then crimped the spades and 12 years on I've had no trouble with the wiring on it at all.
I've stared roughing out a diagram based on the BSA one, was surprised to see Road Rocket and Flash slightly different, comes to the same thing in the end, probably a difference in the  layout between the two bikes required different wiring.

once again thanks to all
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Online chaterlea25

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Re: wiring question
« Reply #11 on: 09.08. 2014 22:17 »
Hi All,

Quote
This is because most loads are Watts and a Watt is not racist and cares not if it is getting its Watts via 6V,12V,24V or 240V for that matter.
So if you loose 1 V at a corroded terminal. then another at a bad switch and a third at the headlamp socket the poor old 30Watt globe is going to gobble up 10A in place of its supposed 5A and if you have used 5A wire then it will get hot ( Amps = heat ) and thus create more resistance thus dropping the voltage even lower in a never ending spiral till the smoke escapes or your fuse blows.

I dont know where you came up with that theorie  *????* *????* *????* *????*
It is utter Bollox  *ex* *ex* *ex* *ex*

Watts are a product of volts x amps
a poor connection adds resistance so the current does not flow so wattage drops
liken it to putting a kink in a garden hose

John
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline trevinoz

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Re: wiring question
« Reply #12 on: 09.08. 2014 22:19 »
What you said, John.

Offline duTch

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Re: wiring question
« Reply #13 on: 06.12. 2015 00:28 »


 Just thought I'd do a search for 6 Volt relays...only result
... I think I remember reading this at the time....probably did what Bill was planning to do and peruse Trevs post over a bevvy...*beer* ....stayin' outta that last bit though... *smile*....

 Trev, do you have a local source for 6V relays...?

 With all my babbling about lights, I've overlooked that my light-switch, has been playing up being a bit fickle, not that I've been out a lot after dark- don't need to, I take my own Lucas darkness... *smile*

  No serious, it ain't that bad, but I've been intending to add in a headlight relay for peace of mind ('piece of mind' is different), but figured 6V relays may be different to a 12V one, and after doing some searching on the 'Nets', they are available but not so common and not always cheap.

 Have others used one in their light circuit to alleviate switch problems??

 
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Have a '74 850T Moto Guzzi since '92-best thing I ever bought doesn't need a kickstart 'cos it bump starts sooooooooo(mostly) easy
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Offline cyclobutch

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Re: wiring question
« Reply #14 on: 06.12. 2015 12:01 »
I bought a couple of 6v relays intending to use those for the dip and main beam light switching, but to be honest I do very few after dark miles and my headlight is actually quite bright as it is. So I've yet to fit them.
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