Author Topic: Oil system Q1: Adding an oil filter  (Read 3082 times)

Online Greybeard

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Re: Oil system Q1: Adding an oil filter
« Reply #45 on: 09.11. 2017 12:03 »
...While an old cast iron top end Beesa can chug away seemingly forever on the faintest whiffs of lube.
Yup, the first A's had no direct rocker box feed, They relied on oil mist from lower down. I think for most of us old gaffers who don't expect our old machines to behave like a modern bike the lubrication system is fine even without a filter, as long as the gunk is cleared from the crankshaft and the oil is changed often.

Offline rowan.bradley

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Re: Oil system Q1: Adding an oil filter
« Reply #46 on: 10.11. 2017 13:46 »
I don't really understand all the concern about back pressure from the filter. Surely the return pump should be able to overcome any reasonable amount of back pressure, unless it's totally knackered? The oil can't go anywhere except through the filter. If the return was totally blocked, the only thing that could happen is that the pump would not pump any oil because the oil would leak through the clearances in the pump. So long as the pump gears are turning, then I guess there will have to be a LOT of pressure before this happens. In any case, we only need to worry about the non-return flap valve, don't we? The ball pressure relief valve we normally DON'T want to open, so it's not relevant to the back pressure discussion. As someone already said, if it does open, then the situation is no worse than if we had never fitted the in-line filter. The comparison of the pressure required to pass oil through the filter in the return line with engine operating oil pressures is surely false. The situation is totally different. The oil pumped by the return pump can't go anywhere except through the fitler. The oil pumped by the feed side pump is fed to the main bearings and big ends and all sorts of other places. The pressure is generated by the flow volume from the pump and the resistance caused by the bearings and all the other places the oil goes to, which will depend on bearing wear etc. The operating oil pressure in the engine is little to do with the pressure that the pump COULD create if its oil outlet was blocked.

If the above analysis is correct, I'm not going to worry too much about back pressure in the filter. Re the blow/suck test, surely another reason why blowing/sucking may be difficult is that this is a better filter than others, i.e. the filter medium has smaller pores and will stop more wear particles, therefore it passes less air?

Thanks - Rowan


Current bike: 1958 A10 Super Rocket (in bits), purchased in 1967.
Previous bikes: M21

Offline JulianS

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Re: Oil system Q1: Adding an oil filter
« Reply #47 on: 10.11. 2017 14:23 »
I think the filter issue can be overthough.

Most of us who use them have no problems with return side filters.

If there is a blockage in the return side of the lubrication system oil will build up in the sump and be pushed under some presure from the breather and/or through the engine joints. Believe me I know having had a blocked return pipe in the tank.

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Re: Oil system Q1: Adding an oil filter
« Reply #48 on: 10.11. 2017 19:31 »
I don't really understand all the concern about back pressure from the filter. Surely the return pump should be able to overcome any reasonable amount of back pressure, unless it's totally knackered? The oil can't go anywhere except through the filter. If the return was totally blocked, the only thing that could happen is that the pump would not pump any oil because the oil would leak through the clearances in the pump. So long as the pump gears are turning, then I guess there will have to be a LOT of pressure before this happens. In any case, we only need to worry about the non-return flap valve, don't we? The ball pressure relief valve we normally DON'T want to open, so it's not relevant to the back pressure discussion. As someone already said, if it does open, then the situation is no worse than if we had never fitted the in-line filter. The comparison of the pressure required to pass oil through the filter in the return line with engine operating oil pressures is surely false. The situation is totally different. The oil pumped by the return pump can't go anywhere except through the fitler. The oil pumped by the feed side pump is fed to the main bearings and big ends and all sorts of other places. The pressure is generated by the flow volume from the pump and the resistance caused by the bearings and all the other places the oil goes to, which will depend on bearing wear etc. The operating oil pressure in the engine is little to do with the pressure that the pump COULD create if its oil outlet was blocked.

If the above analysis is correct, I'm not going to worry too much about back pressure in the filter. Re the blow/suck test, surely another reason why blowing/sucking may be difficult is that this is a better filter than others, i.e. the filter medium has smaller pores and will stop more wear particles, therefore it passes less air?

Thanks - Rowan

I agree with all of that  *yeah*
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Offline BSA_54A10

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Re: Oil system Q1: Adding an oil filter
« Reply #49 on: 11.11. 2017 07:59 »
It is a gear pump , high volume, low pressure.
A badly cut gasket obstructing one of the return holes on the pump can cause wet sumping while you ride.
The pressure is very low.

However the rubbish about back pressure from the oil filter is a joke, unless it has been on there 20 years and has no bypass on the filter element.
It is fostered by people with no understanding of fluid dynamics who hear about problems with filters that have nothing to do with out bikes then incorrectly apply it where it does not belong.

OTOH if some twat fitted a 4 - 10 micron hydraulic oil filter to their bike because they got one cheap and do not have the understanding that the element in their spin on filter is somewhere between 75 & 100 micron, then back pressure would be a problem.
Bike Beesa
Trevor

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Re: Oil system Q1: Adding an oil filter
« Reply #50 on: 12.11. 2017 22:45 »
I just keep it really simple and dont fit a filter at all.

I got my first A10 back in 1970 it had no oil filter. I blew up god knows how many in my first five years due to lack of oil or poor mechanical knowledge none of them would have been saved by an oil filter thats for sure. Obviously now I no longer drive like a complete idiot and my mechanical knowledge is far improved (I think).

Build them right, use suitable oil and they will trundle along forever without a filter. Thats my take on it anyway. If it aint broke dont fix it is my motto.

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Re: Oil system Q1: Adding an oil filter
« Reply #51 on: 12.11. 2017 23:03 »
I fitted a filter to help to save the sludge trap from filling up again.

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Re: Oil system Q1: Adding an oil filter
« Reply #52 on: 13.11. 2017 22:30 »

However the rubbish about back pressure from the oil filter is a joke, unless it has been on there 20 years and has no bypass on the filter element.
It is fostered by people with no understanding of fluid dynamics who hear about problems with filters that have nothing to do with out bikes then incorrectly apply it where it does not belong.

OTOH if some twat fitted a 4 - 10 micron hydraulic oil filter to their bike because they got one cheap and do not have the understanding that the element in their spin on filter is somewhere between 75 & 100 micron, then back pressure would be a problem.

Tell us how you REALLY feel!  (Perhaps dial back the coffee consumption a bit?)  Or being deliberately Obtuse?

Delving into a Oil debate on a Internet forum is like racing in the Special olympics, Even if you win you are still retarded.

use a filter, dont use a filter Not my Monkey and not my circus, I dont care, The question was asked and salient points raised. I posted my opinion based on experience.  Dont like it then dont use them or ignore it.
(Same with loctite eh?)

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Online orabanda

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Re: Oil system Q1: Adding an oil filter
« Reply #53 on: 14.11. 2017 00:22 »
As a professional in the fluid power industry since the late seventies, and a specialist in filtration, my views on this are:
(a) Install a filter in the return line
(b) do not be concerned about the scavenge section of the gear pump; if it is in serviceable (good) condition the return filter will not worry it

'Nuff said.
 

Offline BSA_54A10

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Re: Oil system Q1: Adding an oil filter
« Reply #54 on: 14.11. 2017 04:02 »

However the rubbish about back pressure from the oil filter is a joke, unless it has been on there 20 years and has no bypass on the filter element.
It is fostered by people with no understanding of fluid dynamics who hear about problems with filters that have nothing to do with out bikes then incorrectly apply it where it does not belong.

OTOH if some twat fitted a 4 - 10 micron hydraulic oil filter to their bike because they got one cheap and do not have the understanding that the element in their spin on filter is somewhere between 75 & 100 micron, then back pressure would be a problem.

Tell us how you REALLY feel!  (Perhaps dial back the coffee consumption a bit?)  Or being deliberately Obtuse?

Delving into a Oil debate on a Internet forum is like racing in the Special olympics, Even if you win you are still retarded.

use a filter, dont use a filter Not my Monkey and not my circus, I dont care, The question was asked and salient points raised. I posted my opinion based on experience.  Dont like it then dont use them or ignore it.
(Same with loctite eh?)

Me upset, you must be jokeing.
I ride BSA's and have been doing so since 1966  so have a hide as thick as a bull eliphant.
Engine oil will happily flow through the filter paper on most oil filters under no more pressure than to force of gravity.
You actually said as much when you noted that some filters have anti drain back valves to prevent this happening.
While there is a differential time factor in there, if oil will happily drain back through the paper element, then pumping through the paper element is not going to present a problem unless the paper element is way too fine or totally clogged.

Back when I was foundry metallurgist one of the "fun" jobs was to check the bunker oil we used to burn in the furnaces.
This was supposed to be filtered to 120 microns and had to be less than 150 microns or it would block the filter in the burners.
Prior to my time they force filtered it but cleaning out the side arm flasks was a PIA so I changed that to simply using a plain pleated filter paper into a beaker.
This took all of about 10 minutes longer to filter 20 liters do but we were running it through around the same grade of paper that most low end auto filters do 75-100 micron.

One of the problems with the web is all sorts of information gets posted and despite what a lot might think, the great bulk of it is in fact accurate.
However a good deal, while being accurate is totally not applicable to our motorcycles.
recession of valve seats is a perfect example of this.
Now oil filters will create some pressure and the finner the filter the greater this resistance will be.
However if you care to take one apart & actually measure just how much paper is in a modern filter you will see that it is many thousands of times greater surface area  than the cross sectional area of the oil lines thus becomes insignificant.
Now again in modern engines where oil flow is calibrated and in many cases controlled by jets in the various outlets, slight changes in oil pressure can be catastrophic but in our dinasaurs it make absolutely no difference.
I have an oil pressure gauge in the 4 WD I drive currently and at best I might get 5 psi difference from cold idle to hot valve bounce.
Where as my A 65 had 50psi difference cold idle to hot valve bounce.
In modern times there is a lot more good quality measuring equipment available and this is one of the things that allows modern engines to run much tighter tollerances than the stuff this forum is dedicated to.
So while it might be interesting to measure the different back pressures from different oil filters, in cold hard reality it does not make a wrinkled rats rectum of difference to us, unless we are trying to make a land speed record attempt.
Every time you put a curve in an oil line, it affects the flow rate and the back pressure in the oil line.
Now days we can easily measure this, but that does not mean that we should nor dose it mean that we should panic about or indeed make any attempt to rectify it.

Back when I was 17 ( and naturally knew everything ) I was busy stuffing lead into the return pipes  to increase the oil flow to the head which by "common knowledge" was not enough to adequately cool the head.
Why
Because sprayed oil cooling was a feature of a few air cooled engines at the time so if it was good  for a modern Japanese engine it must be better for and old Pommie one - Right ?
Bike Beesa
Trevor

Offline Sluggo

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Re: Oil system Q1: Adding an oil filter
« Reply #55 on: 14.11. 2017 07:03 »
Used to be some old TV ads in the 70s about Sanka coffee and irritable people,,, "Whats the matter Jim? Too much caffeine?"  In some of my career as well as personal life I have a lot of experience with high strung people and a lot of training in conflict de-escalation. So,,, its kinda a inside joke when people seem to be very hostile or wound up you want to try and understand why. (We have the holidays coming up and some of the relatives........well, we all deal with that sort of thing right?)

So, I too actually have some real world experience in this (Skip the resume blathering) but specifically did some testing on old British motorbikes.  Thus, I was, and still do try and pass on what we found.

Short version:
#1) A filter with modern oil in vintage bikes is a good idea
#2) Use a filter with no restrictions, check valves, anti reversion flappers or anything else. WHY? Because in the end there is NO benefit from those on old BI, NONE,, BUT it CAN,  not always but CAN be a source of problems, So, Murphys law would dictate why introduce a potential problem for no reason?

Its rather like recreational heroin use.  Sure,,, SOME people can use opioids responsibly (injury) but the probability it will lead to ruin is rather high.

I mentioned in other oil discussions I had a friend and shop customer who had a plastic oil line failure on a Notrun/Norton and oiled his rear tire and caused a crash. Scared the Bejeesus out of him and was a cautionary tale.  Not long after that another NOTRUN/Norton owner was having wetsumping issues intermittantly and had a number of close calls. 
After multiple Exxon Valdez incidents including 2 while on a spirited ride in the mountains he brought the bike to me and wanted full testing and investigation.   

We looked at everything and I had several other knowledgeable people look at it as well.  We went thru everything and could not pin down the problem.  But the issue DID NOT happen when the filter was bypassed and eliminated.

 (several tear downs of the motor, multiple pump rebuilds as well as swapped pumps, PRV swaps and rebuilds as well as different springs, Oil line replacements, every gasket checked, seals replaced, breather operation, over several months every possible Idea was explored.)

But we kept coming back to the filter and when we swapped in a no restriction filter, no issues again.  But while we did not exhaustively test every filter brand like DYNODAVE,, We found the issue only happened when there was a check valve/flapper no return in the filter.  As DYNODAVE charted, there is differing pressures depending on filters but the intermittent sumping issue did NOT occur when the filter was full pass thru-non restrictive.

So, the owner was accepting of the conclusion and never had any further issues, But it was to the point if we couldnt resolve the issue he was going to sell the bike.

I also had 2 very close calls and were with a Triumph and ironically a Honda CB750, Neither of which are known for the wet sumping issues for the most part. One that scared the living daylights out of me was a friend and I were going to ride to the old timers banquet, Country winding roads, a seconday highway, and then a short jaunt on the interstate.  Mix of low rpm-high RPM.  I Had a low oil level and thought it strange but a quick test found no issues or return line problems and circulating normal by all appearances.  So I added a half quart and checked again.  We set out, and stopped mid way and still no issues.  300 yards from the interstate onramp letting out my clutch the bike was not moving forward, more revs and then it dawned on me too late and the bike caught and rocketed across the intersection narrowly missing a expensive SUV with me dancing across on my feet trying to not tumble.  My riding companion saw the whole thing.
He said the rear tire was spinning like mad and then caught and the bike took off and he said my get off and jumping around was epic material.  We found the oil level grossly over filled and tipped the bike over and dumped about a quart out.  Much checking found it all in order and we completed the ride to & from but very cautious.

Had this occurred on the interstate or the on-ramp merging with traffic still frightens me today.  So I admit I am very careful about never repeating a event like that again.   A local guy last year went off the road about 3 miles away and was not found until a week later.  The exact cause is not fully known but I was told the rear tire was and bike was very oily. The official report cited probable mechanical issues contributed to COD.

So about a year later of those NOTRUN/Norton issues, I went to work for another shop doing the backlog of vintage bike work they had accumulated.   The owner of the shop sold a wide variety of bikes, parts and services.  We discussed and tested a variety of filter setups, oil testing, break in lubes, Pump testing and Breathers, carbs and ignitions.

He was very methodical and we contracted with some companies to do development work.  He had several really well designed Oil test setups and we integrated filter testing as well.  (Not just motorcycles here, but that was one part of his business).  So for vintage bikes we DID do testing on the test rigs with filters and for vintage style motorcycle oil systems Jim had a very specific list of acceptable filters. 

We did observe on Royal enfield pumps (The old style bucket design) and gear drive style pumps Norton & BSA use that wet sumping and return flow happened to some degree with a restriction in the return side.  Not in ALL RPM ranges and other factors were there, But you can physically SEE this happen.

He came to the same conclusion,  Dont add in complexity or complications if it serves no purpose.  End of discussion.   When demonstrating this to clients and shop customers it was never a debatable issue.  It was pretty obvious and no one ever questioned our testing or results.

I do have some photos of some of this buried in my office files, and while our interests were mutual most of the time, I also had my own interests and agendas as well.  We learned a lot from each other but parted ways after 12 months.

Since, I have posted some of this on internet forums and used to post pictures and test data as well.  Seems it always ends up someone arguing about it.  By this point in time, most people know Oil discussions are contentious. 

I dont have a test rig of my own anymore.  But reading some recent commentary from DYNODAVE he has found some interesting results in pumps assumed to be good and strongly recomends that every pump of these designs are tested.  I am not here to speak on his behalf and if interested you should contact him directly.  But in light of his comments I am going to be building another test rig myself and make it modular that I can test a variety of pumps.  It is not terribly difficult to make something like this.

Many years ago when we were developing the Land Speed record bike that currently holds 2 records, the design of that bike was a 1950s British twin (Norton).  The entire motor was changed in many ways and design brief was to run at extreme RPMs which is polar opposite of a old farm implement BSA Twin.  But the same principles COULD be applied. (How fast do you want to go?) so to get the HP we needed the decision was mapped on some very advanced computer modeling (Think advanced Formula 1 & NASCAR design software) that we could make an old farm tractor engine run at extreme RPMs..  (up to 12,000 rpm).  12 years of work and a lot of dead ends, and it came pretty close.  But in THAT case we used a race car external segmented oil pump with multiple chambers and each chamber fed specific areas on the engine.  Both feed and scavenging was tested and flow needed for each area.  I am no longer involved with the team effort and the other 2 guys are dead now. The guy working on it now has totally different ideas and if it ever runs again, will no doubt be a totally different setup.  I only mention this in this context is that there is a lot of variables here and what you want to accomplish.  The LSR bike is totally a different beast than these old BSAs but EVERYTHING we tested & developed COULD be used on a BSA if you wanted to. 

Moving fwd, just proceed with what works for you, I am not here to prove anything and It matters not to me if anyone does or does not follow my advice.  Mostly I want tech related to A10 stuff I dont know or have access to.
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Offline BSA_54A10

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Re: Oil system Q1: Adding an oil filter
« Reply #56 on: 14.11. 2017 08:34 »
Once again Sluggie, I am not cranky,

And I do concur with points 1 & 2

Quote
Short version:
#1) A filter with modern oil in vintage bikes is a good idea
#2) Use a filter with no restrictions, check valves, anti reversion flappers or anything else. WHY? Because in the end there is NO benefit from those on old BI, NONE,, BUT it CAN,  not always but CAN be a source of problems, So, Murphys law would dictate why introduce a potential problem for no reason?

However the rest is just clouding the issues and only just barely relevent , unless you are as you mentioned trying to pull 300% more out of the engine.
But the OP is not doing this, he is simply asking if he should fit the filter, where should he put it & what filter to use.
Now considering the substantial extra cost of very fine oil filters , extra cost of clogged filter by pass valves , let alone reverse flow check valves,  I seriously doubt this would be a problem.
Finding a cheaper filter elements seems to be tops on most agendas.

Now perhaps Notrun owners are happier to open their wallets than BSA riders are but the only question I get regularly is "where can I get a cheaper cartridge from ?" closely followed by "is there a smaller filter element that will fit?"

And again, max flow rates and the like are well & good but totally irrelevent to what we are riding.
Considering how well a lot of BSA's run with the sludge trap all but blocked off, flow rates are a bit etherial.
Right now there are a couple of photos on this forum of choked up cranks from bikes that were running quite well.
There was a reason why BSA recommended 30,000 between bottom end jobs and it was not because the slippers would be worn down to the backing metal by then.
Using the high ash oils of the day at 30,000 the sludge trap can be getting down to 1/4 volume.
If you have done any where near as much work on BSA bottom  ends as you mention then you must have come across more than 1 where the oil gallery was blocked solid & the oil was more like seeping through a solid mass than flowing through a gallery.
 
Julian got it right in post 47, way too much over thinking.

Having a wealth of experience and the knowledge to back it up is a good thing and spreading that knowledge is  admirable, in the right place , at the right time.
You have mentioned a lot of very interesting things, and in their own thread would be fantastic but none of them was any help to Rowan.
Mind you I can also run way off topic as well, you are not alone.

As for the remains of the in tank filter Rowan posted, they slip over the return line standpipe in pre-WWII Std & Deluxe BSA's.
They were not fitted to competition models.
If you look down the standpipe on an oil tank that had one fitted you will see a base plate on the bottom of the standpipe.
No bottom plate = no filter.
While the filters are being remade in Tiwain  now days the top cover is not and without the cap which forces the oil down through the felt the filter is of no real value.
If you are buying a competition Blue Star it will not have one as because as you should know it loads up the return side of the pump which robs power  from the crank and the Blues Stars were the performance models in 35, 36 & 37 . BSA fitted 7 different engines to them and naturally the semi wet sumped models had no filter, in fact there was no return pump at all , more horses for the track.
Bike Beesa
Trevor

Offline Sluggo

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Re: Oil system Q1: Adding an oil filter
« Reply #57 on: 14.11. 2017 09:29 »
okay Trevor, I think we have common ground.  And I think it was established early on the fairly inexpensive EMGO filters should fit the bill both for price as well as no obstructions or check valves/flappers or other issues.

To answer your question on sludge traps,,,,YES!!! loads of them clogged up.  One of the issues of modern oils is they contain loads of detergents and are designed to keep particulates, sludge, Smegma and swarf in suspension instead of settling out.  So typical scenario is a well meaning but poorly educated new owner for a vintage lump (BSA-Norton-Triumph) hauls a treasure out of a shed, barn, or garage and adds some fluids and then rides it like they stole it.
Not only has the sludge (Just like a sewage septic tank) probably plugged up the bottom end while sitting  but it then gets stirred up and recirculated thanks to modern Oils,,and running thru the bearings and surfaces. Or plugging up small orifices elsewhere in the motor.   (But we all know this right?)

Oil and filters are just like Politicians & underwear... they need to be changed often.

*Thanks for the clarification on the gauze filters,, will aid in my oil tank/bag surveys. 
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Re: Oil system Q1: Adding an oil filter
« Reply #58 on: 14.11. 2017 11:00 »
Sluggo,
Can I have your permission to quote the bit about sludge coming out of the trap on a Facebook post?

Offline Sluggo

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Re: Oil system Q1: Adding an oil filter
« Reply #59 on: 14.11. 2017 11:14 »
Sluggo,
Can I have your permission to quote the bit about sludge coming out of the trap on a Facebook post?

Sure, although I am sure there is plenty of other better written versions of the same thing out there.  If someone catches that Smegma reference they might get offended..

But if it saves just one engine I would be happy.  Been harping on this to a guy lately in Calif,, he has a BSA A10 scrambler with possible significant history,, doesnt want to split the cases.  A friend delivered some parts to him couple months ago and ALSO pointed out the sludge trap issue,, same deal,, "I'm sure it will be okay".  Sigh,.....  (Not to mention ancient gaskets and seals that should be renewed)

Was at an autoparts store 2 days ago and bought some MAF intake cleaner (EFI sensor) and noticed next to it there is Main seal sealant that specifically restores mainshaft oil seals.
What an amazing world we live in that there is an actual miracle in a bottle that seals up worn or aged mainshaft oil seals, perhaps an upsell would be a separate valve stem sealer Miracle in a bottle as well as ignition shaft sealant.

Dont even get me started on Head gasket and block sealants you add to your radiator!  What an amazing world we live in!  (Better living thru chemistry!)
Remember that any advice received on a free internet forum is generally worth about 1/2 of what you paid for it.
We overcharge every 3rd customer to pass the savings onto you.
You can have High Quality, Low price, and fast turnaround. Pick any 2, Never all 3 at the same time.