A10 rebuild with electronic ignition

[Stu]

Hi guys.
I've put the crankcases together and in the frame, barrel is on secure. The timing side cogs are all lined up with the dots and marks touching.
I'm putting electronic ignition on for the first time for this bike.
My question is, what should I do to set the timing?
The manual says to put the right piston on exhaust cycle, etc and lower the piston an amount BTDC, then measure from top of the piston to the top of the barrel, at a certain distance the points will be open, set them to the correct gap.
Since I'm putting electronic ignition on, how do I do it?
I can imagine it's easier with the old points on and just replacing them but the bike came without that stuff, hence the uograde.
Thanks in advance

[RichardL]

Honestly, I don't know how to do this, as I've never had one nor set one up, but I assume those that would know will need to know the brand and model of the ignition system and, I think, cam number (356 or 357) and piston compression.

Richard L.

[KiwiGF]

Hi guys.
I've put the crankcases together and in the frame, barrel is on secure. The timing side cogs are all lined up with the dots and marks touching.
I'm putting electronic ignition on for the first time for this bike.
My question is, what should I do to set the timing?
The manual says to put the right piston on exhaust cycle, etc and lower the piston an amount BTDC, then measure from top of the piston to the top of the barrel, at a certain distance the points will be open, set them to the correct gap.
Since I'm putting electronic ignition on, how do I do it?
I can imagine it's easier with the old points on and just replacing them but the bike came without that stuff, hence the uograde.
Thanks in advance

My BTH electronic magneto came with a “pin” that locked it at a particular position enabling the timing to be done, however I found that very inaccurate (+/- 10 degrees from memory) and cobbled together a disc and strobe light set up “on the bench” to determine exactly where the timing was set when the pin was used, and loaded in one direction, and transfer that knowledge to using the pin with the magneto on the bike. There is no need to remove the magneto from now, hence disturb the timing 😆

Depending on the ignition you are using you will be able to do something like I did, or set up a degree disc on the drive side, for that you need to find TDC, and use a strobe light. Around 30 degrees fully advanced seems to work for me, I found it was not too critical but some owners try to get it exactly 32 or whatever.

I made my own degree disc out of a piece of galv tin.

I also made my own TDC finder out of an old spark plug.

[muskrat]

G'day Stu.
As Richard said we need to know what type of ignition you have?
I have Boyer on both my A's. The instructions should tell the marks to line up at advanced timing. Most that I've seen run a wasted spark meaning both sides fire together so no need to worry about which cylinder is coming up to fire.
Wind the crank to top dead center then wind it backwards to the height you need (best to go too far and then bring it back up to that point). Now set the timing marks and fix the pinion.
Really he only way to get the timing spot on is with a strobe (timing light) with the motor running.
With the head still off now is a good time to make a degree wheel to fit under the cush nut.
Cheers

[jhg1958]

I just succeeded putting on a Wassall electronic ignition with my 1961 GF.

The engine is fully rebuilt and was not a runner when I foolishly bought it. I found top dead centre with a pencil on the LHS pot on the compression stroke and marked the pencil.  Since it uses a wasted spark it does not really matter what stroke or pot.

I marked a line on the pencil 11/32” above the TDC mark.  Turning the engine over again until the next compression stroke I stopped at the 11/32” mark (fully advanced). This took me a few goes as it is easy to overshoot and you really want to approach fully advanced mark forwards not backwards.

I set the mark on the rotor to the clockwise mark on the stator. Tightened the rotor and stator, Fastened it all up and hey presto a running A10.

I know I will need to set it with a strobe but you cannot do this without the engine running. Plus I do not have a strobe.

It would be better to use a proper TDC tool and a degree disc but since you have to do the fine tuning with a strobe timing light anyway.  But the more I learn about my A10 the more I realise how little I know.

The Wassall instructions say to use the anti-clockwise mark but this is wrong.  If you want some amusement read my post from last week.

John

Starting to think about scrounging a strobe and working out how use it on the A10.  Mainly taking information from this forum I am wondering if a strobe will be a big help especially as the A10 does not have timing marks.  My reasoning is

-The A10 is an old bike that was designed to have a manual advance lever so why is accurate timing so important?
-SRM describe the importance of identifying TDC approaching is in both directions and taking an average rather than just the normal direction.
-Haynes manual states 11/32" (33 degrees) is fully advanced.
-Factory service sheet  set it a 12/32" for A10 with a GA prefix on the engine number
-SRM suggest 9/32" to account for modern fuels
-someone suggests 5/15" to prevent pinging.

So I have set mine at 11/32' with a pencil and if it pings I will retard the ignition.  Sod the strobe.

John
 

[Stu]

Ah thanks for the advice guys.
I bought a vape12v from feked.
The head is on but not torqued down so I can remove of needed. I guess the correct thing is to remove the head, turn the engine until the piston is a certain amount from the top of the barrel, that will give me the correct amount of degrees BTDC
After that I'm stumped, I'm building this bike in Zambia, I'm a brit living in Africa 34 years, so my mum sends the parts from U.K.but local advice is non existent.
Can someone explain as if I'm their wife, haha, the basic steps after getting to BTDC. I see inside the kit body there's a rotor with two magnets and a mark on one edge. Obviously this turns as the engine turns so it'll be in a certain position at the correct BTDC.
I have the kit installed and the advance fitted.
The shaft seems very stiff, I assume this will loosen once running?

[Triton Thrasher]

I have the kit installed and the advance fitted.

Do not use a centrifugal auto advance with  Vape electronic ignition.

[Topdad]

Stu,does your new unit have fixing holes that are elongated so it can be turned just like an older car dissy ? if not can you do that ,its a suggestion for mags as well that I think one of our Aussie friends suggested . It would make timimg far easier with a strobe light.

[Triton Thrasher]

Stu,does your new unit have fixing holes that are elongated so it can be turned just like an older car dissy ? if not can you do that ,its a suggestion for mags as well that I think one of our Aussie friends suggested . It would make timimg far easier with a strobe light.

Not needed, because the stator plate has elongated holes, allowing timing adjustment.

[Swarfcut]

 Stu  A picture of the K2F mount rotor housing unit on the Feked site shows the standard three hole set up, not elongated slots. Also the centre shaft is carried on at least one sealed ball race. Hopefully the tightness is down to the high quality materials and precision  manufacturing tolerances used on all Wassell Products**

 My estimation is that it should free off with use.

  Reviews indicate an "advance curve" so the black box must control the timing electronically for starting and running under load., as such a non Auto drive gear is required. Must admit finding the detail proved difficult, and surprised to find VAPE is Czech.

 Swarfy

 **100% BS.

[Triton Thrasher]

There’s at least one oil seal.  That will cause palpable resistance to rotation.  We don’t know how stiff Stu’s example is, to turn.






The Wassell/Vape ignition has about 18 crankshaft degrees of electronic advance. 

[Stu]

I got this reply from feked.
The shaft being new will be fairly firm but should not be overly stiff.
Can not be used in conjunction with an auto advance unit, you will need
to either replace with just a drive gear or find a way to lock the auto
advance so it can not change the timing.
Is this gonna work? I think I can lock the timing but how's that gonna mess the timing up?

[jhg1958]

Stu

I assume you have the electronic ignition in place with the gears all set. See photo. The electronic ignition has a solid state auto advance system. You cannot use the mechanical advance system with it.

First you need to set the engine at fully advanced.  Either turn the engine backwards well past the fully advanced position then forward or just go around again.  You can set it on either cylinder, I used the LHS. For my Gold Flash I stopped the rotation when the cylinder was 11/32” before top dead centre. Other A10s use 3/8”.  There is a thread that I started recently converting these to degrees if you are using a disc.

Then offer the black stator plate up to the ignition unit with the screw holes in the middle of the 2 slots on the stator plate. Make a note of the “C” marker position a marker pen is good for this.  It was about the 1:30 position on mine.

Take off the stator plate and put in the magnetic rotor on the taper with the line in this 1:30 position. Put in the Allen bolt in but do not tighten yet.

Put the stator plate on with the 2 screws hand tight.  You can make small adjustments to ensure the “C” line matches the line on the magnetic rotor. If you have to rotate the stator fully on the slot to get the two lines to align then you are better repositioning the rotor.  Align the 2 lines and tighten the 2 screws on the stator and the Allen bolt on the rotor. Check again. If anything has moved you need to loosen the rotor and start again.

I disastrously followed the instructions to align to the “A” anti-clockwise mark.  The bike would not start. I changed it to the “C” mark and it started second kick.see the photo with my ignition set to the WRONG mark.


I set my electronic ignition after the bike was fully assembled so there is no rush for you.

I hope this helps

John

[muskrat]

G'day Stu.
Didn't your kit come with instructions? Have a look here https://www.jrcengineering.com/technical-support/vape-ignition-installation-and-troubleshooting/ But it is describing replacing a later points system. Probably where your confusion starts.
Cheers
You got in first with your last post.
Best using a solid timing pinion, but a locked auto unit will do. Advance is controlled by the black box so when setting up the motor is at the advance height. The marks on the stator are the advance mark.
You will be able to get the timing close but to get it spot on a strobe and degree wheel will be needed and used with the motor at around 3000RPM!
Cheers
Then John got in. I type with one finger!

[Stu]

Haha! You guys rock.
Yeah I see in John 's pic its just a cog, I can order from uk and wait 3 weeks or just lock the springs on the advance mech, if that's safe?
I have a while before ill be able to try starting it so don't mind ordering the part, if the difference is worthwhile.