Author Topic: SR or RGS timing VERSUS electric starters  (Read 1808 times)

Offline Rgs-Bill

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SR or RGS timing VERSUS electric starters
« on: 28.08. 2011 20:56 »
All A-10 motors run better at 3/8 BTDC. An A-10 properly timed is so easy to start you could do it with your hand, (if the compression pushing back was not there ).. Set them in THOUSANDS, not with a feeler gauge though ,  use a zig zag cigarette paper, which is about     
1&1/2 thou. to 1&3/4 thou.  Set the mag points at .013 thou, bring engine , to 3/8 BTDC, back it down, bring back up to 3/8, on compression stroke ( takes slack out of gear teeth) ,now turn the mag until it just releases the zig zag paper without tearing it, and set the mag drive gear on the tapered shaft.  Re-check it sometimes gear setting changes mag when pushed on.  Remember opening the points more advances the Ignition, closing re-tards the Ignition. The minimum on the magneto points when it is unloading its capacitor charge is .10 thou, and that is getting pretty marginal for full electrical charge to the cylinder.. Neat way to check this  (with manual advance) is it should also just release the cig. paper without tearing it, when in the fully advanced position also, which would be at TOP DEAD CENTER ( the cold starting position )  When a motor is set like this, and is this easy to start, who needs the electric starter set up, for $1300.00 U S Funds, plus post from England...Keeping in mind if you have a leaky condenser, or mag needs re-winding this will not help your bike run any better...
U S of A
N.W. Corner, Seattle 
1962 RGS
78 YEARS OLD
Still Kick Starting My Motor (9 TO 1)
Although getting a bit tougher to do ! !

Offline MG

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Re: SR or RGS timing VERSUS electric starters
« Reply #1 on: 28.08. 2011 21:27 »
err, err....
Hi Bill and welcome to the forum!

I hope you don't take offense, but a short introduction post would have been nice prior to telling us your opinion on electric starters, mags, the sense of life, universe and everything.  ;)
1955 A7 Shooting Star
1956 A10 Golden Flash
1961 Matchless G12 CSR

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Online Triton Thrasher

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Re: SR or RGS timing VERSUS electric starters
« Reply #2 on: 28.08. 2011 21:50 »
  Set the mag points at .013 thou,

You mean 13 thou (0.013 inches), don't you?  Why not 12 thou like the manual says?




 
Quote
The minimum on the magneto points when it is unloading its capacitor charge is .10 thou, and that is getting pretty marginal for full electrical charge to the cylinder..


I expect you mean 10 thou (0.010 inches).  The rest of that sentence makes no sense to me at all.




Online bsa-bill

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Re: SR or RGS timing VERSUS electric starters
« Reply #3 on: 28.08. 2011 22:20 »
Hi Bill (from another Bill)

Wish I could agree about them being easy to start, I have two, one will start with just little more than the weight of your leg, the other seems to want to save the planet from emissions.
don't think an electric starter will do anything for starting other than save your leg but if your unfortunate to have leg problems then it would be a godsend.

Quote
when in the fully advanced position also, which would be at TOP DEAD CENTER ( the cold starting position )

one small point the cold start position is retarded, and is at around TDC with some variation due to manufacturing tolerances of the AA units and on manual types levers , cables  and so forth

Like to see a pic of your RGS when you get around to it
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Offline Rgs-Bill

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Re: SR or RGS timing VERSUS electric starters
« Reply #4 on: 29.08. 2011 21:26 »
The extra .001 thousanth, (.013) is the way Jack Hurt of Santa Rosa Calif. sets them up, and he has been re-winding K-2 magnetos for 40 plus years, and it sure made a difference in the way my bike runs, since he just re-wound my mag. It has to do with how long the charge lasts in the combustion chamber (longer is better, more complete  fuel burn, more torque, more power) ... 
   As far as your one A-10 not starting good, ( would it be be when bike is hot, or all the time  ?? ) are you sure you do not have a small open in the primary circuit wiring of the K-2 mag, (if that is what you are running) Really worn valve guides, sloppy like a lot of air getting past, sloppy slide in Amal carb, air leaks at carb attachment, air leaks top of carb, not timing with the slop out of the gears, these will all make for hard starting on the pre-unit,SR & RGS motors.  What compression ratio are you running ? , Mine is 9 to1 partially domed pistons, and I just barely push it down, and it is running ,  do not have to jump on the kick starter at all.. Is yours manual or automatic advance ??
U S of A
N.W. Corner, Seattle 
1962 RGS
78 YEARS OLD
Still Kick Starting My Motor (9 TO 1)
Although getting a bit tougher to do ! !

Offline a10gf

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Re: SR or RGS timing VERSUS electric starters
« Reply #5 on: 29.08. 2011 22:19 »
Welcome to the forum, am hoping you will enjoy the place, seems like you have many opinions to share.

&, an intro post in Bikes & Members is always much appreciated.

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Offline Rich

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Re: SR or RGS timing VERSUS electric starters
« Reply #6 on: 30.08. 2011 07:30 »
I presume you are in the States as you quote Dollars, I set my timing at 5/16ths to make an allowance for the poor octane fuel we have hear in the UK, also I use an electronic gizmo to determine when the points open much more accurate than cig. papers,   
I also suffer from Osteoarthritis in my right hip so at times I do not really need to agrivate it, although the bike starts easily on the kickstart,I have an electric leg on the Super Rocket,
The thing is that different people like different things, thank goodness, otherwise it would be a boring old world, and I had the cash and Steve needed to have bikes to fit his kit to in the early days when it was under pre production tests, mine was one of the first two to have this fitted, and although he has made improvements to the materials and production I have still the original fitted ,it must be nearly 20 months and it is still working well.
Nice to hear from another A10 owner send a few more posts so you can get some pictures posted
Rich
 

Online bsa-bill

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Re: SR or RGS timing VERSUS electric starters
« Reply #7 on: 30.08. 2011 10:00 »
Hi Bill
Quote
As far as your one A-10 not starting good, ( would it be be when bike is hot, or all the time  ?? ) are you sure you do not have a small open in the primary circuit wiring of the K-2 mag, (if that is what you are running) Really worn valve guides, sloppy like a lot of air getting past, sloppy slide in Amal carb,

New carb new guides. Magneto refurbished 3 years ago but sat on shelf for almost two years before tried.
Difficult to start most times but worse warm, shows all the signs of condenser/coil insulation break down (old age) but shouldn't.
Getting there slowly, just a case of being sure I'm blaming the right culprit, but enough I've plagued these good folk long enough with this problem, I should be riding it
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Offline Topdad

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Re: SR or RGS timing VERSUS electric starters
« Reply #8 on: 30.08. 2011 12:16 »
Re: A7 timing tricks

Hi Bill , i think you're going to like this forum ,re timing Iposted this a few mths ago on another forum when quite a few guys were quoting timing disc's ,electronic buzzers et al . I'm running (now i've got 4 gears ) 8.25 comp ratio pistons on an ironhead '59 motor with a spitfire cam and followers .The head had bigger valves fitted by SRM (Indeed they did the end feed converstion and bored the barrels ) and I polished the inlet tract using this old method all of my previous and this A10 start beautifully normally 1 or second kick ,the only hiccup was when the mag windings /innards gave up the ghost ,refurbished and back to being as good a gold. Please excuse the initial rant but I was by that time wondering what the hell we'd turned into in the years I'd not been riding. the *******
should read "fag paper " your zig zag.Best wishes BobH

God,I never realised we'd all morphed into technocrats, gauges?? Am I the only person who remembers the cycles of a 4 stroke by " suck squeeze bang blow" I've alway's used the way I was shown 40 odd years ago ,clean and face the points properly,set em to the correct gap then turn mag over to check both positions are giving the same gap ( if not could be a worn cam ring )place ********* between points and move gently until just releasing ,set engine to TDC ,tappets rocking on the side you're timing then insert special tool ( a new pencil) down plug hole mark tdc against suitable bit of head as a ref point, take pencil out mark on it the correct amount of retardation required 5/16" I think but have it written down somewhere , place back down plughole and back engine until marked point lines up with original ref point,set mag pinion as prevous guy's have said depending manual or auto advance tighten up and that should be that. I know I sound flippant but in truth our BSA's were made to be worked on at the side of the road by average mechanics ,that to me is there facination, that they perform so well with the technology available 50 yrs ago.Don't get me wrong I'm not stuck in a time warp but I remember having a chat about timing with one of the guy's from SRM who had just returned my converted crank and He went through this sequence with me and then added "i'd also back just a bit more" because I'd raised the comp ratio. Unless you change the mag for a black box system do you really believe we need special tools for every job? I believe you just need to be methodical and patient if it's not right change it until it feels right if you do it a number of times and still no better check the Mag , check the colour of plugs check the carb and fuel system but only change one thing at a time or you'll confuse the issue. Finally i've owned and rebuilt 6 BSA's over the last 44yrs and everyone following rebuilds has fired up within 2 kicks of primeing using what I've relayed above.
hope this is of help ,BobHebdon.
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Online bsa-bill

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Re: SR or RGS timing VERSUS electric starters
« Reply #9 on: 30.08. 2011 13:24 »
Getting to be like parliament this forum - too many Bills
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Offline a101960

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Re: SR or RGS timing VERSUS electric starters
« Reply #10 on: 30.08. 2011 15:41 »
First of all let me say that my bike will always start first or second kick hot or cold. Normally first kick when hot, and more often than not when cold. The issue of pinking has only been been resolved by retarding the ignition, but at the cost of some loss of performance. I have an auto advance mag fitted by the way. The problem of pinking has always been an issue with the high performance versions of the A10 or so it would seem from what was written in the contemporary road tests. This is what the "Motorcycle" road test of November 22nd 1962 has to say on the subject. "Although 100-Octane petrol was used, pinking was audible if the throttle was opened hard at any engine speed" and "From tickover at 800 R.P.M. the engine answered the throttle crisply and instantaneously, provided the ignition lever was used intelligently". Two things spring to mind. Firstly manual advance was fitted to the high performance bikes for the very good reason that it was the only way to eliminate the pinking problem. The auto advance characteristics were just not suited to, or appropriate for high performance. Secondly, while the original ignition timing setting of 3/8" B.T.D.C. does indeed afford very brisk acceleration the problem of pinking was, or is the the price that has to be paid in order to realise the full performance potential. When my engine was set at 3/8" B.T.D.C. it went like sh*t off of a chrome shovel but it could be provoked into pinking all to easily, and for that reason I retarded the ignition. British parallel twins have always had a reputation for their ability to pull from low revs in top gear, however I think that this generalisation has been applied without taking into consideration the differing characteristics between touring and sporting models. I tend to think that pinking has always been a problem with old Brit bikes, because the phrase "intelligent use of the ignition lever" features frequently in old road tests. With modern petrol I think that there is little chance that this problem can be resolved satisfactorily. Perhaps if some work was done on combustion chamber shape with a flow bench there might be some improvement. David Vizard did a lot of useful work on BLMC Mini heads back in the seventies but few of us would have the time, inclination, or the facilities to do this I suspect. Personally I have chosen to be pragmatic. My bike runs now without pinking because I have retarded it. The loss of some performance I am able to live with. All I want to do is to get out on the bike and enjoy it without worrying about holing pistons or knocking out the bottom end prematurely. Regarding the electric start conversion on Rich's Super Rocket, all I can say is that it is a brilliant mod. Not only does it work incredibly well, it is impossible to see how it has been done until he points it out. It is something that I am actively considering having done having been in the position where I found it difficult to start my bike (heart problem that has now been sorted out). The beauty of it is, is that the kick start is unaffected.

John

Online RichardL

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Re: SR or RGS timing VERSUS electric starters
« Reply #11 on: 30.08. 2011 17:28 »
First of all let me say that my bike will always start first or second kick hot or cold.

I hate you...............  ;) Just kidding and haven't even read the rest of the post yet.
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Offline Rgs-Bill

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Re: SR or RGS timing VERSUS electric starters
« Reply #12 on: 20.07. 2012 19:41 »
I think if you look at Steve McFarlanes web site you will see that it is    #1300. which is $2106.00 in U S funds. I am glad to see some one else has discovered Jack Hurts .013 thou on the initial setting of the mag points before you time at  3/8 BTDC  all of the pre unit bikes run better at 3/8 BTDC . I have had my Rocket Gold Star for fourty years, and until I had my maggy re-wound by Jack Hurt, and the initial point setting at .013 before timing the bike , > I never ever reached full power with this bike, and never had a smooth running engine at idle or any speed, it was always lumpy running !!! And now that I have cured my Induction Port Obstruction problem ( mine, left side of manifold ) was at least 3/16ths I had to dremel out of the manifold, because of where BSA machined the carby stud to low . It now runs on the pilot jet at idle instead of the carb slide position (way too rich before) does not soot up and dry foul the right plug anymore, both burn light beige like they are supposed to. Running .025 pilot , 31/2 slide, 107 needle jet, needle 2nd notch from top , 390 main jet, this bike will actually scare me now when I dump it to full throttle, my ass wants to go south and hit the concrete, hang on baby !!
U S of A
N.W. Corner, Seattle 
1962 RGS
78 YEARS OLD
Still Kick Starting My Motor (9 TO 1)
Although getting a bit tougher to do ! !