Author Topic: no return from engine to oil tank  (Read 8169 times)

Offline a10sausage

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Re: no return from engine to oil tank
« Reply #15 on: 27.02. 2009 09:47 »
off to my garage for a mega fettle....its my day off work....i did not prime the filter as i thought it would be nice to see the oil return to it.....the filter is fitted the correct way round......why is nothing easy and straight forward on my a10....every job i have done has been a challenge.....its all a learning curve....i will report back later today.....the sausage
1959 bsa bantam d1
1956 ariel huntmaster
1922 triumph model h
1930 sunbeam model 8
1936 bsa q21 500 bluestar
1939 velocette mac
1975 honda cb750
2013 victory vegas

Online bsa-bill

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Re: no return from engine to oil tank
« Reply #16 on: 27.02. 2009 09:56 »
It took a while for oil to return to the tank when I fitted a filter on my A10, filter holds a fair bit oil -  percentagewise which can only be a good thing.

AS for things not being straight forward - tell me about it, I did the gearbox on my last Flash without a hitch, this one is not quite changing gear as I would like after rebuild so I had a look in yesterday, not sure why but now it changes fine until I put the inner cover on then it locks up solid, somethings moved I reckon so It needs to come off the bike and onto the bench - todays task.

All the best - Bill
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Offline a10sausage

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Re: no return from engine to oil tank
« Reply #17 on: 27.02. 2009 19:15 »
hi bill...sounds like i am not the only one to get problems.....now here is the big question am i lucky or unlucky...you decide after reading this....had a  strip down today after still no flowing oil.....first port of call was to remove the oil pump...and it came out fairly easy to my surprise...now the test..it was dipped in oil and rotated....aaarrrggghhhh ! no oil was being pumped...this a 260 quid pump that had done less than a thousand miles...we stripped the pump down and the Feed gear, driver with spindle had broken..see pics..gutted...so if you have a wet sumping prob it might be your oil pump gone knackerd...and not returning oil to the tank...i estimate i might have done around 20 miles with no oil flow..or very limited since the pump broke...as thats when it started wet sumping...20 miles since... i would not have discovered the broken oil pump if i did not decide to fit an inline oil filter...i am going to the vintage bike rally soon and the big ends would have blown out for sure...i am still not certain if any damage has been done...i dont think i can fix the pump as i do not know who made it...the pump was fitted just before i bought the machine...i even phoned the shop who fitted the pump (reciept came with bike) and he could not remember the make...groan...so it looks like one of those srm high flow billet pumps will have to be bought...pricey but good....that unless anybody out there can recognise the pump in the pics!
1959 bsa bantam d1
1956 ariel huntmaster
1922 triumph model h
1930 sunbeam model 8
1936 bsa q21 500 bluestar
1939 velocette mac
1975 honda cb750
2013 victory vegas

Online bsa-bill

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Re: no return from engine to oil tank
« Reply #18 on: 27.02. 2009 19:37 »
might not be as bad as you fear. if it was wet sumping then oil was getting into the crankcase, so how did it get there maybe one side of the pump was supplying enough, lets hope so.
I don't think you would get 20 miles without oil flow !!!

Never heard of pumps failing like that

All the best - Bill
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Online RichardL

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Re: no return from engine to oil tank
« Reply #19 on: 27.02. 2009 19:44 »
Sausage (I'm gussing that's not your real name),
Very glad to hear you've found the problem. Now for some nail biting regarding the internals after 20 miles on limited flow. Where you can, force in some oil, foe example, at the rockers. Thats the obvious place I can think of just now (I' in an airplane on the tarmac). I would recommend waiting until you hear from others about other ingenious oil injection methods. It would be a pity if you were just at the last point of residual oil endurance and, then, things went bad just after startup and before full flow. I hope this doesn't sound too gloomy, but if there are easy precautions to take, short of complete disassembly, that's what I would do.

I look forward to hearing about  succesful reassembly, a delightful stream of oil spraying from the top of the tube in the tank and your enjoyable riding.

Plan on signing up for the world-wide 2017 DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDE on September 30, 2018. Watch website at https://www.gentlemansride.com for details.

Offline a10sausage

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Re: no return from engine to oil tank
« Reply #20 on: 27.02. 2009 21:06 »
great to hear from you manosound...i have just had one of my mates on the dog and bone...he could not believe the pump fractured inside.....now for the nail biting moments that await regarding the oil...i am going to remove the plugs and send oil down there and when the new pump is i will fully prime it from the oil tank feed....i will not start the motor until oil is returning at the return via cranking the engine with the kickstart...srm recommend flushing the oil tank out and making sure its spotless before i fill it with oil again....anybody any ideas whats the best way to do this...also has anybody else purchased an srm oil pump...the new billet blue type....cheers...andy
1959 bsa bantam d1
1956 ariel huntmaster
1922 triumph model h
1930 sunbeam model 8
1936 bsa q21 500 bluestar
1939 velocette mac
1975 honda cb750
2013 victory vegas

Online Brian

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Re: no return from engine to oil tank
« Reply #21 on: 27.02. 2009 21:07 »
At least now you know what was wrong. Never trust after market parts.

Behind the oil pump is the supply gallery that goes to the timing side bearing and bigends, its the one with the spring loaded ball in it. I would get a oil can and pump some oil into that. When you have put it all back together and there is oil returning to the tank hold your finger over the outlet hole in the oil tank for about 30 seconds, this will force some oil to the rockers.

Hopefully not but if any damage has been done then its too late now so reassemble it all and hopefully it will be ok.

Just on the subject of anti syphon valves, I wont use them. You only need to start the bike once a month to empty the sump and if the valve fails it can cost you your engine. Not worth the risk I reckon. Some have taps that are electrically linked to the maggy, if you have to have something then that would be the way to go.

Good luck, Brian.

Richard

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Re: no return from engine to oil tank
« Reply #22 on: 28.02. 2009 00:05 »
A10sausage
That looks like a standard pump A10 pump from the photos anyway at least you found the problem.As per my previous post I took my oil tank off the bike to wash it out it is not difficult to remove it and a more thorough job can be done. The filter should stop any particles reaching the tank. Cranking it over first with the plugs out may be tiring but at least when you get oil return to the tank you know that it is all working.
What bike rally are you off to ?
All the best
Richard

Offline a10sausage

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Re: no return from engine to oil tank
« Reply #23 on: 28.02. 2009 09:08 »
hi richard...its this one....all classic bike riders get free travel on the railway as well http://east-lancs-rly.co.uk/?p=classicbike&m=40 ....regarding the pump being an original one...all i can say the owner before me paid a lot of money for it...so i hope not...the pump is inscribed a175 on the rear...heres more pics of the pump assembled...the sausage
1959 bsa bantam d1
1956 ariel huntmaster
1922 triumph model h
1930 sunbeam model 8
1936 bsa q21 500 bluestar
1939 velocette mac
1975 honda cb750
2013 victory vegas

Offline A10Boy

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Re: no return from engine to oil tank
« Reply #24 on: 28.02. 2009 13:24 »
Mr Sausage.
Now you've found the problem you are obviously concerned about engine damage. There are a few things worth noting.

Firstly oil was getting into the sump therefore it must have gone thru the engine, albeit in a limited flow.

secondly, given that oil was in the sump in some quantity, it would have been thrown all over the crank, big ends and bores by the rotation of the crankshaft. This would have provided some lubrication to the big ends and mains.

Thirdly, there is a very short duration between plain bearings "picking-up" and full on failure in no oil situations. Therefore I would have thought that no picking up has occurred, as if it had, the big ends would probably have already failed.

You can ignore valves rockers etc, as long as they are oiled a bit once a week they are ok.

Given all that I think your engine will be fine.

One thing occurred to me, did the pump have the little washer behind it ? if its not fitted it can bend the casing of the pump which in theory could cause it to bind up, that could cause the drive to break ??
Regards

Andy

1960 A10 - Black Golden Flash
Plus
1974 Kawasaki Z1a
Yam XJR 1300

Offline a10sausage

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Re: no return from engine to oil tank
« Reply #25 on: 28.02. 2009 14:59 »
a10boy thanks for your comments ...i agree with everything you say....although the last ride which was for 2 miles i had dropped the sump oil before while i was messing with the return valve....i still think the motor will be ok...there was no washer behind the pump....but this pump thats was on is rock solid unlike the original alloy versions....i wonder how many owners out there are still running the factory bsa pump with no problems it would be great to know....i am just polishing the timing case cover at the moment....may as well while its off......cheers...the sausage
1959 bsa bantam d1
1956 ariel huntmaster
1922 triumph model h
1930 sunbeam model 8
1936 bsa q21 500 bluestar
1939 velocette mac
1975 honda cb750
2013 victory vegas

Richard

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Re: no return from engine to oil tank
« Reply #26 on: 28.02. 2009 16:21 »
A10sausage
just had a look at my spare original pump guess right it is an alloy one ---now i did not twig that so if yours is cast it must be an after market type.
However as per A10boy's post just check with your pump on a straight surface and you may find that if the casting has been copied from an original the top fixing face is set back slightly from the bottom two fixing faces hence the need for a fibre washer to stop it twisting.
a good check to do with the replacement as well.
I still run both mine with the original type I am not sure what benifit to a bog standard road going bike spending a vast amount of hard earnt on a fast flow pump would be?
I think that show is a bit to far for one day besides which I thought I may go to Red Marley hill climb on the 13 April at great Whitley
regards
Richard

Richard

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Re: no return from engine to oil tank
« Reply #27 on: 28.02. 2009 16:23 »
Guess right should have been ---Guess what
Richard

Online RichardL

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Re: no return from engine to oil tank
« Reply #28 on: 28.02. 2009 16:44 »
Sausage,

As I'd expected and hoped, others joinded in and contributed to the "what to do before running it again" question. A10boy's comments sound very promising, though, I am confused by one part. If one can wet-sump with the bike standing in the shed for a month (or more or less) how is it that oil in the sump is an indicator that it got there after routing through the engine? Maybe I'm being lazy by not going to my oil circuit drawing, but I'm not sure the answer would be obvious. Further comments, A10boy?


In an effort to acutally be helpful, I found the links that follow:

http://www.mca-aston.com/catalogue.asp (I believe this may be the actual manufacturer, based on the following link, in Swedish)

http://www.bsaoc.org/swe/bsa_bladet/bladet20073.pdf

http://www.morsbikesonline.com/product/Oil-pump/Oil-Pump-Cast-Iron-Body (a dealer showing an actual picture)

If it turns out that MCA (Aston) is the manufacturer, you might have hope of some compensation, since they appear to acutally exist.

Regards,

Richard L.


Plan on signing up for the world-wide 2017 DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDE on September 30, 2018. Watch website at https://www.gentlemansride.com for details.

Online RichardL

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Re: no return from engine to oil tank
« Reply #29 on: 28.02. 2009 16:48 »
At MCA-Aston, enter part number 67-1381 or 42-0155 on their catalog page.
Plan on signing up for the world-wide 2017 DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDE on September 30, 2018. Watch website at https://www.gentlemansride.com for details.