Author Topic: no return from engine to oil tank  (Read 8174 times)

Offline a10sausage

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no return from engine to oil tank
« on: 25.02. 2009 17:48 »
hi folks.....i recently had a wet sumping problem on the flash as you may have read on the smokes our street out topic....i have fitted an inline oil filter on the return side...phew ..(took me about 4 hours....don,t laugh)  and started her up...i loosened the filter off to check for a return on the oil....aarrrgghh....non to be seen....so took the bike out for a quick spin...still no oil going back to the tank...i suspect this may have been the problem all along....crankcases filling with oil and no return.....i have just removed the sump plate for the first time...the metal filter is in line with the bottom of the  crankcases is this right...i thought it went into the metal sump plate cavity....i prodded the ball bearing...that moves ok....just for info the bike has a high flow oil pump that was bought around 12 months ago and cost around 200 quid....so that should be ok....any info would be great *sad2*
1959 bsa bantam d1
1956 ariel huntmaster
1922 triumph model h
1930 sunbeam model 8
1936 bsa q21 500 bluestar
1939 velocette mac
1975 honda cb750
2013 victory vegas

Offline RichardL

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Re: no return from engine to oil tank
« Reply #1 on: 25.02. 2009 18:03 »
Original sump-plate filters extended upward into the crankcase with the pick-up tube a close fit through the lined hole in the mesh. The new replacements come in two forms, as I have seen. One type is basically flush with the bottom of the crakcase and the pickup tube pushes down against the lined hole, distorting and potentially (as in my case) dislodging the mesh. The other type has the mesh just slightly depressed toward the sump plate so that the pickup tube does not distort it. This is the type I just bought from SRM and am awaiting to fit it. Both get fit between two sump-plate gaskets.

Richard L.
Plan on signing up for the world-wide 2017 DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDE on September 30, 2018. Watch website at https://www.gentlemansride.com for details.

Offline a10sausage

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Re: no return from engine to oil tank
« Reply #2 on: 25.02. 2009 21:40 »
hi folks...i have just removed the front cap of the oil presure relief valve and cracked the engine up and no oil is coming out of the hole....groan....further investigation needed
1959 bsa bantam d1
1956 ariel huntmaster
1922 triumph model h
1930 sunbeam model 8
1936 bsa q21 500 bluestar
1939 velocette mac
1975 honda cb750
2013 victory vegas

Offline mike667

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Re: no return from engine to oil tank
« Reply #3 on: 26.02. 2009 00:06 »
hi folks...i have just removed the front cap of the oil presure relief valve and cracked the engine up and no oil is coming out of the hole....groan....further investigation needed

have you primed the valve  -some require oil in them - before they will work

Offline RichardL

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Re: no return from engine to oil tank
« Reply #4 on: 26.02. 2009 03:20 »
I had a similar problem last year after the completion of my engine rebuild. Not "no" oil, but not enough moving. It turned out to be a little ball of dirt (or something) that got stuck in the input end of the supply fitting, just after the supply pipe and just before entering the engine. Verify clear supply (and return) pipe and clear fittings. I would say you could do this by blowing compressed air from the bottom of the pipes back to the oil tank. The only problem with that is that you might clear the problem without proof of the final diagnosis. For more difinitive diagnosis, you would remove the pipes and blow through them quite gently while checking for flow. You can remove the fittings to check them or try a pipe cleaner gently through them. While this might not reveal or cure your actual problem, it is one of the things that must be verified.

Richard L.
Plan on signing up for the world-wide 2017 DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDE on September 30, 2018. Watch website at https://www.gentlemansride.com for details.

Online Brian

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Re: no return from engine to oil tank
« Reply #5 on: 26.02. 2009 04:42 »
Hi there sausage, need to clear up a couple if things. In your other topic you say you drained the sump and there was 3/4 pint of oil in it. Was it returning oil to the tank then ? If you had no return to the tank when the sump had oil in it and you have no supply now then that would indicate your pump isnt turning. If this is the case take the timing cover off and kick the bike over and check the pump worm is being turned by the worm gear on the crank. If it is then take the pump off and check the gasket is correct, not blocking the oil holes behind the pump.

Brian.

Online bsa-bill

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Re: no return from engine to oil tank
« Reply #6 on: 26.02. 2009 10:58 »
HI a10sausage
Just a small point but you do not say how hard you ran the engine, the valve is after all a pressure release valve and opens I believe at 60 psi, I don't know at what point an A10 pump will provide over 60 psi but I would guess it would take a good few revs maybe someone on the forum knows.

All the best - Bill
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Offline A10Boy

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Re: no return from engine to oil tank
« Reply #7 on: 26.02. 2009 13:12 »
Are you saying that AFTER you took it for a spin there was oil in the sump, if so how much oil and how far did you ride?

Did you drain the sump before starting her up, and did you fit an in-line one way valve like you were considering, if so are you sure its the correct way around?

I'm sure you are aware that even a few seconds without oil will wreck the motor, so my guess is that if you've ridden it, oil must be being pumped on the supply side - is the oil level in the tank dropping slowly when you run it?
Regards

Andy

1960 A10 - Black Golden Flash
Plus
1974 Kawasaki Z1a
Yam XJR 1300

Offline a10sausage

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Re: no return from engine to oil tank
« Reply #8 on: 26.02. 2009 16:47 »
ok folks ...i really appreciate all your help...heres the full story...yesterday i decided to add an inline oil filter....you all are probably aware of the 2cv type that you can mount in the tool box....the is how this problem started....i used the old return line as my new supply line as it is an original sheilded version...my original supply line was a rubber one so i used the connectors for this to install the filter kit on the engine to oil box......i started the engine after installing the kit but no oil returned to the oil box......so this what i have done today....i have dropped the sump cover again and cleaned the ball valve or anti syphon...i also removed the wire filter and cleaned it....when i dropped the sump approx 100ml of oil dropped out into my jug....i then removed the timing case cover and inspected the oil pump...this rotates fine on the worm drive...i slackened the nuts that hold the oil pump on and clean new oil flowed through from my oil tank to the pump...i retightened the bolts and started her up....pump runs ok....i then removed the oil return line at the engine and started her up...only a few small drips came out of the orafice....although i did find some oil in the return line when i looked....clean oil so it must have passed through the engine....i rode the bike for about two miles yesterday...i would have thought that this would be enough to fill the return line and filter....i also removed the oil pressure valve again and a slight trickle runs down the crank case when the engine is running... *sad2* *ex*
1959 bsa bantam d1
1956 ariel huntmaster
1922 triumph model h
1930 sunbeam model 8
1936 bsa q21 500 bluestar
1939 velocette mac
1975 honda cb750
2013 victory vegas

Offline a10sausage

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Re: no return from engine to oil tank
« Reply #9 on: 26.02. 2009 16:52 »
hi brian......i cant be certain if oil was returning to the tank when it was wet sumping....has any body else ever started there a10 with the return line off at the engine....dose oil squirt out...or just the odd drip like mine...or maybe the engine needs to be run for a long while after both oil lines have been off
1959 bsa bantam d1
1956 ariel huntmaster
1922 triumph model h
1930 sunbeam model 8
1936 bsa q21 500 bluestar
1939 velocette mac
1975 honda cb750
2013 victory vegas

Offline a10sausage

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Re: no return from engine to oil tank
« Reply #10 on: 26.02. 2009 16:53 »
hi mike 667....when you say prime the valve.....can i have a bit more info....cheers......the sausage....update...just got some info from the web http://www.britishcycle.com/Manuals/SRM_oil_pump_fitting_inst.htm i am begining to wonder if because i did not prime the pump...i had both oil lines off you see...it may be that it took a while for the oil to get round....saying that there is oil now at the pump and flow is very slow...just a slight dribble now and again...cheers
1959 bsa bantam d1
1956 ariel huntmaster
1922 triumph model h
1930 sunbeam model 8
1936 bsa q21 500 bluestar
1939 velocette mac
1975 honda cb750
2013 victory vegas

Offline A10Boy

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Re: no return from engine to oil tank
« Reply #11 on: 26.02. 2009 20:01 »
Did you run the engine with the PRV removed?

Assuming you haven't done something basic like switching the lines by mistake, which you've obviously checked, then the oil should return as you've done nothing else to it. I would guess its just an airlock.

I would try carefully pressurising the oil tank thu the filler hole with the motor running, if you've got an old cap drill a hole in it and [carefully] stick the airline in there. you will need to loosen the line to the tank from the new filter first [and close off the tank return pipe spigot] and see if oil then returns.

The main thing is make sure that oil is supplied if you are running the motor. If I can suggest you put the return from the filter into a jug and then watch the oil level in the tank and see it slowly dropping you should be ok
Regards

Andy

1960 A10 - Black Golden Flash
Plus
1974 Kawasaki Z1a
Yam XJR 1300

Offline a10sausage

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Re: no return from engine to oil tank
« Reply #12 on: 26.02. 2009 21:25 »
you read my mind a10 boy....i do need to pressurise the tank with air and get things flowing..i am a bit concerned that i have already rode it....but thats life and you live and learn...i ran the motor with spring and ball bearing out to see if oil flowed....just a slight trickle.....i did not get the oil lines switched or anything like that...so we are ok on that count....the engine still sounds ok...and no metal particles in the sump...if i ever do this again i will prime the pump....this time i thought a full box of oil would be enough to force the oil round to the pump....cheers
1959 bsa bantam d1
1956 ariel huntmaster
1922 triumph model h
1930 sunbeam model 8
1936 bsa q21 500 bluestar
1939 velocette mac
1975 honda cb750
2013 victory vegas

Richard

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Re: no return from engine to oil tank
« Reply #13 on: 26.02. 2009 22:39 »
Hi A10sausage
I presume that the filter is fitted to the return line and not the feed?
is the filter connected the correct way round?
I fitted the same filter kit to my A10 and had removed all the pipes and the tank and flushed all the old oil out and washed the tank and hoses out with petrol,also the sump was drained and the gauze filter was cleaned I then refitted the tank and hoses and filled up with semi synthetic and all I did was to take the plugs out and kick the engine over until oil returned to the tank.
I doubt that it will be an air lock but I could be wrong!
reading all the posts it would be more logical to suspect  restriction or poor oil pump presuming that everything is connected the correct way round.
Anyway I hope you get it sorted soon
Richard

Offline snowbeard

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Re: no return from engine to oil tank
« Reply #14 on: 27.02. 2009 03:58 »
I have to qualify this that I am just getting into these bikes, so most of these fellows' advice should be followed before mine  ;)

I had a similar experience when I had the timing cover off for weeks on end, once it was all buttoned up it didn't return even after a few minutes of running.  I ended up priming it from the uptake tube with a 60mL syringe and a piece of rubber tubing. after that it returned fine.

I also wonder if you pre-filled your filter housing? maybe it is just taking that much oil to fill that before it returns?

be careful running it too long without return, as it's only the return diversion that oils the rockers, no?
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