Author Topic: Frame woes  (Read 968 times)

Offline Rich

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Frame woes
« on: 01.04. 2019 09:45 »
Having purchase a Gold Flash outfit, that had stood in a garage for 33 years, The plan was to tidy it up and get it back on the road. After 3 days, a carb clean, filters cleaned, new oil, petrol and the mag points cleaned it started and ran rather sweetly, the previous owner informed me that the gearbox tightened up after it got warm and suspected the final drive bearing,
So out with the gearbox, really pleased with the condition as he had already told me that in 1976 he rebuilt it with loads of new parts,however all the bearing were good except the two bushes in the fourth gear mainshaft did not have a space between them, so I machined a gap between the bushes with the gear on the lathe, should now be sorted.
Then the engine was removed, which did not take long and degreased, I masked the alloy parts up and sandblasted the rusty head and barrels, then after a good blow out with the air line, gave them a good few coats of spray heatproof matt black.
Now as the centre stand and side stand brackets had been ground off, apparently the replacement frame (RR) had been used for racing, why they took them off I don't know, the plan was to make new lugs fix them back to the frame and have it blasted and powder coated, a bit more than I wanted to do, but thought at least the frame would be good and other things can be done later keeping the bike on the road.
Well all good plans and all that, John Chaterlea25) helped me out with a drawing of the lugs but I could see that without a visual with a good frame this was going to be difficult, so a friend in Wales who has had an A10 in bits for 11 years is lending me his frame and centre stand which will make life easier, then the impossible bit, removing the swinging arm, the shaft is stuck in the S/A blocks, tried the threaded rod bit with spreading the frame a bit to try to release it and a few swipes with mighty thor against the loose nut on the shaft but to no avail. Not wanting to cut it out and have all the work removing the shaft and silent blocks plus the additional cost of parts and then having to refit them, without a press I would have to pay a machine shop, I have decided to blank of any areas I do not want grit getting into, having the frame blasted and then spray it myself with the swinging arm in situ.
Just waiting for the loaned frame to be delivered, (by another friend). Its good to have buddys.
Progress reports to follow

Online Greybeard

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Re: Frame woes
« Reply #1 on: 01.04. 2019 10:03 »
Sorry to sound like a cracked record chaps: Do you know if the crankshaft sludge trap was cleaned during previous work?

Offline KiwiGF

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Re: Frame woes
« Reply #2 on: 01.04. 2019 12:57 »
Having purchase a Gold Flash outfit, that had stood in a garage for 33 years, The plan was to tidy it up and get it back on the road. After 3 days, a carb clean, filters cleaned, new oil, petrol and the mag points cleaned it started and ran rather sweetly, the previous owner informed me that the gearbox tightened up after it got warm and suspected the final drive bearing,
So out with the gearbox, really pleased with the condition as he had already told me that in 1976 he rebuilt it with loads of new parts,however all the bearing were good except the two bushes in the fourth gear mainshaft did not have a space between them, so I machined a gap between the bushes with the gear on the lathe, should now be sorted.
Then the engine was removed, which did not take long and degreased, I masked the alloy parts up and sandblasted the rusty head and barrels, then after a good blow out with the air line, gave them a good few coats of spray heatproof matt black.
Now as the centre stand and side stand brackets had been ground off, apparently the replacement frame (RR) had been used for racing, why they took them off I don't know, the plan was to make new lugs fix them back to the frame and have it blasted and powder coated, a bit more than I wanted to do, but thought at least the frame would be good and other things can be done later keeping the bike on the road.
Well all good plans and all that, John Chaterlea25) helped me out with a drawing of the lugs but I could see that without a visual with a good frame this was going to be difficult, so a friend in Wales who has had an A10 in bits for 11 years is lending me his frame and centre stand which will make life easier, then the impossible bit, removing the swinging arm, the shaft is stuck in the S/A blocks, tried the threaded rod bit with spreading the frame a bit to try to release it and a few swipes with mighty thor against the loose nut on the shaft but to no avail. Not wanting to cut it out and have all the work removing the shaft and silent blocks plus the additional cost of parts and then having to refit them, without a press I would have to pay a machine shop, I have decided to blank of any areas I do not want grit getting into, having the frame blasted and then spray it myself with the swinging arm in situ.
Just waiting for the loaned frame to be delivered, (by another friend). Its good to have buddys.
Progress reports to follow

You don’t need a press to remove and fit new silent blocs, just some threaded bar and spacers, and a fair bit of blood sweat and tears.

The hardest part of doing the job at the moment, I’ve read, is finding good new silent blocs.

If you’re interested in changing the blocs I can search for my post on topic for you.
New Zealand

1956 A10 Golden Flash (1st finished project)

1949 B31 rigid “400cc hot rod” (2nd finished project, + favourite bike)

GL1800 Goldwing, well, the wife likes it

KTM 950 ADV, cos it’s 100% nuts

1952 Armstrong Siddeley Whitley for rainy days (with wife)

Offline bl**dydrivers

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Re: Frame woes
« Reply #3 on: 01.04. 2019 15:36 »

Offline RichardL

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Re: Frame woes
« Reply #4 on: 01.04. 2019 17:38 »

... the shaft is stuck in the S/A blocks, tried the threaded rod bit with spreading the frame a bit to try to release it and a few swipes with mighty thor against the loose nut on the shaft but to no avail. Not wanting to cut it out and have all the work removing the shaft and silent blocks plus the additional cost of parts and then having to refit them, without a press I would have to pay a machine shop...

While KiwiGF's and BD's advice is good/true, the first problem is still getting the spindle free of the blocs. I'm thinking that much of the force applied by "Thor" to break the rust grip might be getting absorbed in the rubber of the blocs and in bending the frame on the left side. Since you have a lathe (or use of one), instead of using threaded rod as a spreader, why not use it as a press, using the largest diameter all-thread that will fit through the spindle (I forgot the ID figure and can't get it this moment). Then, turn a drift/mandrel with a shoulder having the same ID and OD as the spindle. For the left side, create a block that straddles the shape of the spindle flange and lands on the frame flange. Now, when the nut on the all-thread is tightened on the right, all the pressing force will go into breaking the bond between spindle and bloc. You could even employ Thor again to add a shock to the pressing force, this time without losing energy in the rubber. All this is just hypothesis, of course, because I haven't tried it.

Richard L. 
Plan on signing up for the world-wide 2020 DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDEon September 27, 2020 (if it's not cancelled and we are free to move about by then). Watch website at https://www.gentlemansride.com for details.

Offline Rich

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Re: Frame woes
« Reply #5 on: 01.04. 2019 18:54 »
Yes Greybeard the sludge trap was cleaned out in 1976 when it was rebuilt, it has been off the road some 33 years, I do not intend to strip the engine down just to check it as  it has not done many miles since then the trap should be fairly clear as the oil etc. has not been moving, I do intend to give it a clear out with some sort of flushing oil.
Good idea RichardL I do have a lathe and will try the pulling it out with a threaded bar method tonight. will report back when I have tried it, if it is not successful then it will stay in situ , no big deal as I was going to ride it as it was, rust and all, but decided I would like it to be a bit tidier than oily rag condition. I do not want the cost of a bush kit or even fitting bad silent blocks so if the shaft slides out it will go back in as is.

Online chaterlea25

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Re: Frame woes
« Reply #6 on: 01.04. 2019 19:52 »
Hi All,
Applying heavy pressure to the spindle will distort the mounting plate on the frame   *warn*
All too easy to do  *sad2*
Sacrificing the spindle does the least damage

John
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline RichardL

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Re: Frame woes
« Reply #7 on: 01.04. 2019 20:04 »
A quick P.S., and hope I haven't said something that could ruin your day. My suggestion assumes that it is imperative to get the spindle out even if it gets damaged in the process. Seems you intend to reuse the existing spindle whose threads might be crushed, On the other hand, you are obviously machine savvy, so probably don't need the likes of this weekend mechanic with one running A10 to tell you what's up.

Richard L. 

Just saw John's post. I thought he was going to warn against damaging the spindle. Instead, he's concerned for the frame flange. I thought my concept might be OK because of the block that would straddle the spindle flange and backup the frame flange.
Plan on signing up for the world-wide 2020 DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDEon September 27, 2020 (if it's not cancelled and we are free to move about by then). Watch website at https://www.gentlemansride.com for details.

Offline Rich

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Re: Frame woes
« Reply #8 on: 01.04. 2019 21:15 »
well I tried the threaded rod pulling method, first I locked two nuts on the M12 threaded rod with two spanners, the next size up would not go in, I then turned the nuts down so they just past through the large spindle nut, then turned a small shoulder at the end of the turned nuts so it just fitted the id of the S/A shaft, to make sure the thread was not damaged, for the other end I had a large tube with a flat plate welded to the tube, with a hole in the centre, I offered this up to the spindle shaft lock plate and cut am inch slot out of it to clear the top part of the shaft plate, had to do that as any bigger tube would have been useless, put the rod through and tightened it up and used Thor to give the end of the rod some shock treatment, then tightened it some more and used Thor again, all to no avail.
So the swinging arm is staying put, I removed the rear shockers to see what movement I had on it, I do not know the correct movement but it is more than the shocks will move, a bit tight on the extremes, so I guess the silent blocks are working, there is no play on the S/A so let sleeping dogs lay and all that
No frame parts were hurt or bent during this episode!!

Offline RichardL

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Re: Frame woes
« Reply #9 on: 01.04. 2019 21:33 »
I'm honored that you thought enough of the idea to try it. Sorry it didn't work. Oh, the strength of 33-year-old rust!

Richard L.
Plan on signing up for the world-wide 2020 DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDEon September 27, 2020 (if it's not cancelled and we are free to move about by then). Watch website at https://www.gentlemansride.com for details.

Offline Swarfcut

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Re: Frame woes
« Reply #10 on: 01.04. 2019 22:43 »
Rust Indeed, the finest locking compound in the universe, and available for free.

 The design is flawed. When new, the spindle must pass (with a strong push fit) through the centre tubes of the silentblocs. When the spindle nut is tightened, the frame flanges are drawn together to clamp them and the inner tubes together, but the friction available to hold the centre tubes still is just a small circular area, namely the end section areas of the inner silentbloc tubes. More friction between the tubes and fixed spindle is desirable, but makes assembly more difficult. Fortunately surface rusting over time between the inner tubes and the spindle locks the parts together, hence the problems to dismantle. It is very unlikely the spindle will come out easily and without damage.

 If and when, sacrificing the spindle and dropping the S/A is by far the easiest way, as recommended by Chaterlea John.  Removal of the S/A from the frame allows heat, violence and every other trick you know to get the old bushes out  of the S/A without damage to the frame. Warming the rubber will melt it, best to do when there is no one around to complain, and allow the inner tubes to be drawn out. Slit the outer tubes lengthwise, then collapse them inwards.

 The existing silentblocs should be capable of supporting the unloaded S/A more or less horizontally and not be able to move through a large arc. They should return to the rest position, after deflection. If they can't or don't the rubber has failed or is no longer bonded to the inner and/or outer tubes.


 Swarfy.

Online Greybeard

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Re: Frame woes
« Reply #11 on: 02.04. 2019 00:00 »
Please don't use flushing oil. If there is any crud in the sludge trap you do not want it loosened so it can move along and into the big end journals.

Sorry to leave the main topic Admin but I needed to respond.

Offline RichardL

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Re: Frame woes
« Reply #12 on: 02.04. 2019 00:46 »
Hmmm.

Someone else must surely have a better idea, but I see a future of cutting off the spindle flange (with cutting wheel, or something), spreading the frame so the ends of the spindle can be sawn off. Then, once the swingarm is out, burning out the rubber to remove the remains of the spindle along with the blocs' inner tubes. Then, slitting the outer tubes, as Swarfy notes. Like Rich/you said, it ain't comin' out any time soon.

Richard L.
Plan on signing up for the world-wide 2020 DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDEon September 27, 2020 (if it's not cancelled and we are free to move about by then). Watch website at https://www.gentlemansride.com for details.

Offline duTch

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Re: Frame woes
« Reply #13 on: 02.04. 2019 01:56 »

 Save yourself a lot of heartache and if it ain't broke don't try and fix it *bash*, spray the spindle with lanolin as best you can and ride the bike until it needs it- sounds like a winter job anyway
Started building in about 1977/8 a on average '52 A10 -built from bits 'n pieces never resto intended -maybe 'personalised'
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Offline Rich

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Re: Frame woes
« Reply #14 on: 05.04. 2019 19:01 »
I have purchased a new shaft and tried it into one of the spare swinging arms that I have and it is a nice tight fit through the bushes, one of the wheel adjuster bolts has stripped its thread in the swinging arm, so a helicoil will sort that out. so once I have made the centre stand lugs, the tank centre bolt lug and the tank side grommet lug all of which have been cut of by a previous owner that raced, the frame will be powder coated black along with all the tinware, as I intend to get rid of the Gold colour and have an all black Gold Flash. Will the swinging arm bushes stand up to the heat of powder coating?