Baffled, confused and covered in oil!!!!!!

[edboy]

the more i consider a 20mm deep threaded insert to house the anti syphon ball the more i like the idea. removable to clean and check seating  surface and could even dowel into the pump body. a brass insert would be easy to make. one side of the bsa lubrication shortcomings taken care off.

[muskrat]

G'day Steve.
About a cup (250ml) or less should remain (after 15 minutes of drain down).

G'day Edboy.
Easier to do the A50/65 modification.
Cheers

[edboy]

hello muskrat,
i m not convinced with the a65 conversion. is the oil way oversize to the steel ball and oil flow is around the ball bearing. also is the spring able to move around side to side ?

[RDfella]

When I converted mine to the A65 type system I made the rear plug with a small dimple to locate the spring centrally in the hole (1/4 spring in 5/16 hole) as I didn't want it lying on the bottom. I found the conversion made no difference and it still wet sumped until I fitted a valve in the oil line. I believe the A10 and A65 springs are different, but some suppliers provide the same spring for both. Maybe the stronger spring is needed, but mine's cured with the valve now.

[chaterlea25]

Hi All,
Edboy, Yes and yes to your questions,
I recently posted further information on the conversion when I was modifying a bush equipped engine.
RD,
The conversion will work 100% only if the oil pump does not leak. Almost all original pumps leak along the drive spindles and between the joints on the body. The bodies can also be porus and leak through the mazac
The new pumps have a seal on the drive spindle which helps considerably..

John

[edboy]

great info john. i m off to the shed. there must be a spare pump somewhere.

[stev60]

Thanks Musky thats about the amount I have after drain down, a bit less.

[bikerboy]

Wow is it really 2 years since I abandoned this project?

Well I have picked it up again now and already I am confused.

Dropped the sump first and checked the oil level. Sump had some oil in it (obviously) but not a lot. Seeing as how it used to wet sump, took the sump off filled the oil tank stuck a container under the engine and 48 hours later no sign of wet sumping whatsoever. Kicked the engine over a few times nad left another 24 hours still no sign of wet sumping so maybe its time to start it up and see if it has fixed itself which I find highly unlikely.

By the way never abandoned it as such. The petrol tank decided to leak and it took me time to source anothe tank and get it painted up. Thats why I have not bothered with at so much lately.

[muskrat]

G'day BB.
Just spent an hour going right back to page 1.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the joint from crank case to the feed/return pipe fitting and it's dowel. If the dowel is damaged or missing the holes won't line up 100% and could restrict the return.
On my recent plunger rebuild I noticed the dowel looked a little sad so replaced it.
Cheers

[Swarfcut]

 Me likewise. On the face of it, except for the joint to the crankcase, every part of the system took centre stage at some point. Easily overlooked, that dowel keeps the feed and return pipe oilways in line with the crankcase drillings.

 Swarfy.

[bikerboy]

Thanks for the comments in my case the dowells were both not the greatest so I made and fitted new ones when I built it.

What I have done so far is dropped the sump. No sign of wet sumping. I have put a rubber pipe on the scavenge pipe and blew up it with an airline. As expected it blows back to the oil tank and seems ok.

I am going to now start it with the scavenge pipe in a jar of oil to physically watch it scavenge and make sure it is scavenging more than its putting into the sump. I am not that happy about running it with the sump off but it does seem to be the next logical step. I only aim to run it for a minute or two.

[muskrat]

What I have done so far is dropped the sump. No sign of wet sumping. I have put a rubber pipe on the scavenge pipe and blew up it with an airline. As expected it blows back to the oil tank and seems ok.

G'day BB.
There would have been a fair amount of restriction as the air has to pass through the pump gears. If it was an easy blow I'd be worried about the pump.
Cheers

[Swarfcut]

 That airline test will certainly allow air to the tank, but it should not be a free flow. Like Musky says, the pump gears are in the way. The real test is to remove the pump and test for free flow from the return oil drilling to the tank. Then proceed to that pesky pick up pipe. With the airline on the pipe oilway there should be no flow. The ball valve seals the pipe, and the pipe is sealed to the crankcase. Any sign of a hiss means a leak and the pump will scavenge air rather than oil. Make sure the ball has enough lift on it to allow a good return oil flow, how this valve is assembled is on the Forum.

 If these basics check out, it's down to the pump.

 Swarfy.

[bikerboy]

Evening all. Firstly it was not a free running air back to the tank but it was reaching there eventually. Started the engine today with the sump off and a pipe on the scavenge pipe altho to be fair I did find that a bit weird and worrying. The scavenge part worked perfectly and needless to say oil was running out of the sump at a reasonable rate. Put the sump back on, checked the levels etc and everything was perfect "for now".

Altho the pump whould be high on my list of suspects as I mentioned before I had that on one of my other bikes for over a year and only changed it because I wanted a rev counter drive type so I really cant see it being the pump. I have come to the conclusion that I will use it a bit with a very watchful eye on the oil situation and should it start to pump out of the breather again I will try a different pump but then I am going to strip the engine down and change crankcases. Thats a right pain because obviously it has been line bored, shimmed etc and it will need doing all over again. 

The most infuriating thing is that even tho I have not touched it for 2 years I started immediately and ran wonderfully, one of the quietest engines I have ever built to be honest. So thanks for all your help I will see how it reacts over the next month or so altho with how cold it is in the UK at the moment any test runs will be pretty short for sure :)

[bikerboy]

The bike is a freak thats my honest opinion

It no longer wet sumps unless the engine is running!!!!!! Then it pumps out of the engine breather at roughly the same pressure that it returns to the tank and it returns to the tank at a very consistent rate. Have taken the oil pump off, have "yet again" blown through all the oilways they are clear. It has to be a scavenge problem even if I can see it returning nicely to the tank. I took the sump off before starting it and no oil came out, it had not wet sumped since last taking the sump off. Started it, runs great returns to the tank and pumps out of the engine breather. Dropped the sump and over half a pint came out of the sump, the oil tank level dropped over an inch as soon as it started even tho the return looked good.

It can only be the pump or something wrong with the scavenge pipe in the crankcase. Broke the inner timing case gasket so fitted a new pump but cant put it back together until tomorrow when I get a gasket. If it still pumps out of the breather then its going to be another engine strip

Either way its very intermittent because I must have started it 20 times over the last two weeks and this is the first time its pumped out of the engine breather like it did when it was first built.

The only good news is that I have one of the shorter bike ramps so the rear wheel is in mid-air so to speak. When I was running it the rear wheel was freewheeling as I blipped the throttle and the good news is the breather lubricated my chain completely and my workshop floor