Author Topic: Winter starting  (Read 969 times)

Offline BSA_54A10

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Re: Winter starting
« Reply #45 on: 14.01. 2021 08:28 »
Reminds me of the old gag of the Gardener and the Hosepipe.

 Difficult starter? Swallow your pride and invest in a can of Start Yer *asta*d.

   But yes, the holy trinity of mechanical, fuel and electrics are not at their best in low temperatures and a little bit of volatile chemical help is better than the frustration of being dressed for winter riding, kicking at a reluctant bike out in the cold.

 Swarfy.

Please never use this on a petrol engine.
You risk a big preiginiton and either a hole in the piston or broken rods/ crank for the engine going backwards.

If you really need more volatiles gat a can of carb cleaner, it is much much easier on your engine.
Also remember a little is good, a lot strips the oil off the sides of the bore making starting even harder.
Bike Beesa
Trevor

Online Triton Thrasher

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Re: Winter starting
« Reply #46 on: 14.01. 2021 09:36 »
I’m another of the lucky souls whose petrol doesn’t “go off,” in any vehicle.


Online RDfella

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Re: Winter starting
« Reply #47 on: 14.01. 2021 12:58 »
My experience (motorcycles, cars, lawnmowers etc etc) is that after a couple of months starting becomes more difficult. After a year, impossible. Recall a couple of years back trying to start the B31 with my son. Both kicked it until we were tired. Then we pushed it until we were knackered. Tried easystart - would splutter but not run. Drained the petrol (under a year old) and put fresh. Started 2nd or 3rd kick and ran perfectly. Like Swarfy, any petrol over a few months old now goes to parts cleaning duties. Even the damned expensive 97 stuff (which seems to be the worst offender). Even electric start engines take noticeably longer to start, sometimes over 5 seconds cranking.
Like others, when using my motorcycles I always turn the fuel off before reaching home, so no fuel is left in the carbs (can't on the Honda, it has an automatic fuel tap). On strimmers, chainsaws etc I empty the tank and then run the engine till it's out of fuel. Choice of oil is important for twostrokes, too. On modern stuff, no problem, but on the older gear at 16:1 I always use 4 str oil. Learnt the hard way after years of struggling to start engines after winter layup till one day I fetched a bottle of twostroke oil from the store only to find it had turned solid, just like soap. If mixture was left in the carbs, the petrol evaporated leaving a semi-solid paste blocking jets. Fourstroke oil without the fancy additives didn't do that. Was first alerted to this phenomenon by our local chainsaw dealer.
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

Offline olev

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Re: Winter starting
« Reply #48 on: 15.01. 2021 00:15 »
After the horrors Trevor predicted using ether to start an engine I googled it.
The main detractors seem to be mechanics who want to rebuild your motor.
I must be lucky as I've been using it for years to start engines without any apparent dramas.
A quick squirt and one kick is cheaper than an electric leg, and anyhow it's easier to rebuild an engine than a hip.
Velocette should have provided a lifetime supply with every Venom.

youtube has some interesting videos about people reseating and inflating tyres using the stuff.
not sure that's for me.

cheers

Online ironhead

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Re: Winter starting
« Reply #49 on: 15.01. 2021 03:09 »


youtube has some interesting videos about people reseating and inflating tyres using the stuff.
not sure that's for me.

cheers


Takes having a blowout to a whole new level   *countdown*
SA

Online muskrat

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Re: Winter starting
« Reply #50 on: 15.01. 2021 08:31 »
So I walk with a limp.
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS now A10CR,  '83 CB1100F, 88 FXST .
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Online Greybeard

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Re: Winter starting
« Reply #51 on: 15.01. 2021 09:17 »
So I walk with a limp.
Cheers
A limp what?  *conf2*

Online Angus

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Re: Winter starting
« Reply #52 on: 15.01. 2021 14:29 »
I may have found the common denominator as mention earlier ME. Went to start the A10 today she does and had wetsumped, she is worse this year as she has 20/50 instead of straight 40. About an inch or so down in the oil tank. Now I don’t drain her with that level just start her and run her slowly until the tank refills. She like the A7 is a 1 or 2 kick starter in the summer, but in winter when left for a few weeks a real pain, I have even bump started her a couple of times.
So today after all your advise, let float bowl fill, tickle, full choke, two priming kicks, choke off, tickle again, bring over compression and kick. She fired did not start but fired. So tickle, choke on, priming kick, choke off, tickle again and kick, she burst into life  *clap* *smile*  *loveit*
Now you could say that was 5 kicks including the priming ones but I was not heaving on the kick start for those so I will count that as a two kick winter startup. A different technique required in the winter after a layup that I have never learnt before  *yeah*
I will try the same on the Norton, the A7 is still in my trial to see when she stops starting ‘normally’
1961 A7 since 1976
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1950 T100

Online Triton Thrasher

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Re: Winter starting
« Reply #53 on: 15.01. 2021 14:50 »
Even if it is five kicks, that’s not twenty kicks!

Offline sean

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Re: Winter starting
« Reply #54 on: 15.01. 2021 22:11 »
i live in Canada I never start any of my bikes in the winter it just makes condensation insode the engine and trans as nothing get hot enough to burn it off I pull the plugs ground them out and kick them over a few times but never start the engine .
In spring I drain the sump and they fire right up .

Offline BSA_54A10

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Re: Winter starting
« Reply #55 on: 16.01. 2021 09:15 »
After the horrors Trevor predicted using ether to start an engine I googled it.
The main detractors seem to be mechanics who want to rebuild your motor.
I must be lucky as I've been using it for years to start engines without any apparent dramas.
A quick squirt and one kick is cheaper than an electric leg, and anyhow it's easier to rebuild an engine than a hip.
Velocette should have provided a lifetime supply with every Venom.

youtube has some interesting videos about people reseating and inflating tyres using the stuff.
not sure that's for me.

cheers

Like most things Internal Combustion engine wise there are so many variables that it is not funny.
I live 450 meters from the landlord and about 10 meters lower.
We can both fill our tanks from the same servo & ride the 900 meters home ( OK 1350 for him )
His petrol will have gone off after about 2 weeks in summer and 2 months in winter.
Mine stays fine for an entire year
Also I run SV engines which are not as fussy as his OHV engines

Air temperature also makes a big difference as does humidity >
Some fuel will be off by the time you go home.

Either is substantially more volatile than petrol and the flame speed is a lot faster
Thus instead of a nice steady progressive burn, you get an explosion when using it.
In diesel engine this is fine as most have scolloped top pistons that are 1/2 " thick & substantially stronger con rods

The hydrocarbons use in carb cleaner are nowhere near as volatile as either and designed to burn at approxinately the same flame speed as normal petrol.
Even then when trying to flush crud through an engine ( mower engine ) or using short shots to diagnose a non starting engine the engines definately knock every time they get a shot

I get engines in with scoring on the cylinder walls so I ask have you been using starting fluid and to date every one has said yes
Worse with 2 strokes than 4 strokes .

Now if it the air temperature is low or the humidity is high these lessen the effects.

It is a free world and people are welcome to use what ever they like , but they can now do it with more knowledge than they did before.

Similar to snake oil like Sea Foam , Marvel Mystery Oil , Stabil and all the others.
They do work, within a limited set of conditions
Outside those they either don't work or are not needed in the first place .

Testimonials about how great these goos work are about as much use and value as testimonials about how the lattest home gym worked miricales and turn the 200KG slob int Charles Atlas with only 5 minutes work out once a week.

However what does work for every engine in every country at every altitiude on every fuel is to turn off the fuel & run the engine dry
If you are not using the engine for more than a month , either empty the tank or fill it to the brim.

And my bikes usually start first kick in winter, if it has not wet sumped too bad .
However I don't ride much on days colder than 15 o C which is a fine Summers day in most of the UK   
Bike Beesa
Trevor

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Re: Winter starting
« Reply #56 on: 16.01. 2021 10:06 »
"on every fuel is to turn off the fuel & run the engine dry". Doesn't apply to most of our machines but, as diesels were mentioned in the article, remember the above quote doesn't apply to them, or you'll be a long time trying to start the engine afterwards.
As for engine knocking when using easy start - that's a sure sign of too much. Many people - whether starting petrol or diesel - tend to spray directly into the induction. That's courting disaster. As I mentioned earlier on this subject, spray PAST the induction, so the engine simply draws in what it needs. Some engines (eg 23C Perkins and York diesels) are unlikely to start without fluid, summer or winter. Often you'd find a 23C -engined vehicle with a tow rope permanently attached to the front of the vehicle.  One factory modification consisted of a bracket to mount the 'gasomatic' aerosol on the dashboard with a thin tube leading to the manifold (the long tube helped reduce the possibility of knock).
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

Offline olev

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Re: Winter starting
« Reply #57 on: 16.01. 2021 10:37 »
my google search on ether starting found a couple of sites that reckon you should never use the stuff on a diesel with glow plugs.
Apparently it can blow the intake manifold off. It makes you wonder how much they use.
I found a quick squirt into the air cleaner works for me.
Those boys resetting tyres on youtube seem to use half a can.
cheers

Offline Swarfcut

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Re: Winter starting
« Reply #58 on: 16.01. 2021 11:33 »
    JEEZ... It was just a suggestion that worked for me, car, truck or bike, mower, chainsaw....on days when the whatever was devoid of any sign of life and the alternative was a long walk or another wasted day.

    Spraying into the air filter housing is the only option if you're single handed, and that way the motor draws in a mixture of starting air with a higher content of short chain volatiles, more likely to fire with a weak spark. Two handed means the engine can be cranked and the spray directed into a moving airstream. The secret is to use just the right amount, and yes too much will give pre ignition, but I seriously doubt major mechanical mayhem and actually running backwards. So spraying directly into an open carb is not the ideal way, but may be your only option. As to bore wear, surely we're talking small amounts, not gallons of the stuff, and neat fuel into the cylinders through fruitless tickling, choking and kicking would be even more detrimental as at these temperatures the fuel won't vaporise and be gone, unlike the more volatile spray.

    As to Angus' original post, I find full choke, a good tickle and a kick with the throttle just open a touch will get it to fire and clear its throat, then progressively pull up the choke as we get under way.

   The introduction of coil ignition was supposed to remedy the weak spark problem of magnetos at kickstart speeds. Does this hard to start in cold weather syndrome affect later A65's?  If it does, a fuel mixture problem is the more likely cause.

 Swarfy.

Offline BSA_54A10

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Re: Winter starting
« Reply #59 on: 17.01. 2021 10:47 »
    JEEZ... It was just a suggestion that worked for me, car, truck or bike, mower, chainsaw....on days when the whatever was devoid of any sign of life and the alternative was a long walk or another wasted day.

    Spraying into the air filter housing is the only option if you're single handed, and that way the motor draws in a mixture of starting air with a higher content of short chain volatiles, more likely to fire with a weak spark. Two handed means the engine can be cranked and the spray directed into a moving airstream. The secret is to use just the right amount, and yes too much will give pre ignition, but I seriously doubt major mechanical mayhem and actually running backwards. So spraying directly into an open carb is not the ideal way, but may be your only option. As to bore wear, surely we're talking small amounts, not gallons of the stuff, and neat fuel into the cylinders through fruitless tickling, choking and kicking would be even more detrimental as at these temperatures the fuel won't vaporise and be gone, unlike the more volatile spray.

    As to Angus' original post, I find full choke, a good tickle and a kick with the throttle just open a touch will get it to fire and clear its throat, then progressively pull up the choke as we get under way.

   The introduction of coil ignition was supposed to remedy the weak spark problem of magnetos at kickstart speeds. Does this hard to start in cold weather syndrome affect later A65's?  If it does, a fuel mixture problem is the more likely cause.

 Swarfy.
If you know a serious road racer, ask them about jetting for different weather condition
Part of the art of fine tuning.
Not needed on the road but makes all that difference on the track.
Again it is a case of what works for you just so long as you are informed .

As for exploding a tyre onto a rim. unless it is a massive tractor tyre it is a sure sign of a lazy cowboy fitter and generally an idiot to boot .
To get a tyre to inflate all you have to do is get the air to come in faster than it is going out.
To help doing this there are air pump connectors that clamp or screw onto the outside of the valve holder so the air can get in a lot faster
Thee are also sort of O rings on steroids that go on the rim and sit against the sidewalls if you can not get the bead to touch the sealing face on the rim enough to make enough of a seal for the tyre to inflate.
And while big tyres are a problem, try 3" & 4" rims some time
And starter fluid rots synthetic rubber so once thge tyre has made a seal it should be deflated & reinflated a few times to get rid of any volatiles left inside.
Bike Beesa
Trevor