Author Topic: in-line oil taps and filters  (Read 5094 times)

Online groily

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in-line oil taps and filters
« on: 21.10. 2007 12:52 »
Following a hissy fit yesterday am when the A10 pumped half a pint of oil out of the breather on a very smoky start-up (the tank level had dropped a lot overnight - first time it's done that since I bought the thing) am thinking about an in-line tap plus mag cut-out on the feed line. (Hasn't done it since, btw, and it ran 120 miles yesterday, not a drop of oil used, and no smoke).
Also, if I'm playing plumber, a proper filter in the return would be good. Any thoughts out there from them as knows on these points?
Have done the tap job on an AMC twin using a chunky plumbing item - they really do tend to need it - but haven't personally seen an A series with a tap fitted and there ain't room for the size of thing I used on t'other bike. Anyone know of a supplier of a kit for sorting either or both issues out? Or could anyone describe parts they've used, filter spec, etc?
Ta muchly, Groily
Bill

Offline Beezageezauk

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Re: in-line oil taps and filters
« Reply #1 on: 21.10. 2007 16:54 »
Hi Groily, 
A lot of A7 & A10 owners shy away from an inline tap in case they forget to turn it on prior to using the bike.  Maybe it isn't a problem to someone who is used to turning on the oil tap at the same as they turn on the petrol tap.   
An alternative would be to fit an inline valve.  These are available for about £35 but there are a couple of points of view on them.  Apparently (I say this because I don't have one fitted) the guys who use their bikes for short distances don't seem to have a problem with them.  The long haul riders tend not to use them in case the valve comes into operation and restricts the oil flow whilst the bike is being ridden.
It's up to the individual I suppose.  If your bike has only wet-sumped the once, why not check the oil level in the tank before you start the engine for the next few weeks.  It might just be a "One Off". 
If it has started to wet-sump on a regular basis you could obtain a sump plate with a drain plug.  Then all you need to do is drain the sumped oil into a clean container and then pour it back into the oiltank.  It only takes a few minutes.
B31's & B33's have a sump plug cast into the crankcases.  I don't know why BSA decided not to use the same system on the A series models.
Beezageezauk.

Online groily

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Re: in-line oil taps and filters
« Reply #2 on: 21.10. 2007 17:38 »
Thanks Beezageeza. Much appreciated. I wouldn't install anything without it earthing the mag when the thing's shut off, that's for sure. And I suspect the long haul folk are right about the valve option - I'd be nervous about something that didn't have positive mechanical opening and closing.
I was thinking about modifying (or making/buying another) the sump-plate with a drain plug - but had to drain a certain AMC object for the first 30 years of my ownership till I got so peed off with having to get a quart out every time I left the thing more than a week! It may just have been a messy one-off with this machine (fingers crossed) - as I said, first time it's done it. Usually I ride my toys several times a week all year round (always after looking at the oil level first and checking the return is working), but even when I've left the A10 a week, it hasn't wet-sumped more than a wee bit before . . . We'll see. If it persists, I am going to make something that I reckon will be foolproof (if a bit agricultural, in true Back Street Mechanicking style). And figure out how and where to put a proper filter in the return side. Once they're in the head, it's hard to dislodge these sorts of thoughts! Will let you know what I end up with! Groily
Bill

Offline fido

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Re: in-line oil taps and filters
« Reply #3 on: 21.10. 2007 20:34 »
You may find the filter cures the problem on it's own if the wet sumping was due to a bit of dirt on the ball seat.

Online bsa-bill

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Re: in-line oil taps and filters
« Reply #4 on: 21.10. 2007 20:45 »
Why be nervous about a ball and spring, there's already three in the A10 to start with and two of them are in the oil line

All the best - Bill
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Online groily

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Re: in-line oil taps and filters
« Reply #5 on: 22.10. 2007 07:34 »
True Fido - might well resolve it by just getting rid of the odd bit of muck. Any thoughts on best filter options? I was thinking of making a housing that would take a small car-type screw-on full flow job - but a kit figured out by someone else would obviously be easier if such exists.
Bill, But I'm ALWAYS unnaturally and however illogically nervous about balls and springs - don't even like thinking about them. Which is fine for as long as they don't draw attention to themselves by not seating, getting stuck, whatever. The thought of a ball that's meant to unseat with suction from the delivery side of the pump, and close in its absence, doesn't make me feel great however good the physics of the thing! I'm happy to be called paranoid. Same with ball valves in breather pipes designed to stop sucking mist back in on the down strokes of the piston(s) - they aren't great always either. Maximum flow, minimum points of failure, that's what I say, whether it's oil air water or beer! Groily
Bill

G/F DAVE

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Re: in-line oil taps and filters
« Reply #6 on: 22.10. 2007 09:09 »
Hi, Groily plenty of oil filter kits on ebay site,these are RGM type filter as per original norton I have run one of these on return pipe on my A10 for years, also have a fiinned alloy sump plate with magnetic plug.only downside is finding a space for filter, I have mine mounted between frame & rear mudguard bit of a job to change filter but I reckon it,s worth it, As for balls & springs I have changed pressure relief valve for triumph type with plunger. I agree about maximum flow especially BEER..... Dave *smile*

Online groily

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Re: in-line oil taps and filters
« Reply #7 on: 22.10. 2007 10:16 »
More than helpful - will go look - should just be time before going for max flow on the beer front! Groily
Bill

Online groily

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Re: in-line oil taps and filters
« Reply #8 on: 25.10. 2007 22:36 »
Well, went and had a look at options for filters etc and I see there are indeed plenty out there. Thanks again folks for pointing me in the right direction. However, while I was on the dog and bone to one whom I regard as a Very Knowledgeable Person at SRM (who I really rate - they've been great over recent weeks as I reacquaint myself with the world of the A10) ordering up a sump plate with a bleeding drain plug,  I raised the taps and filter Q. The VKP said -and I follow the logic as it's theoretically right - that a filter on the return side is A Bad Idea: a) because it ought to be on the feed side 'like in a normal engine' (that's the bit I agree with in theory - because it it should ideally) and b) because it 'can make wet-sumping worse'. Now, I agree that if one put the filter in with the pipes on the underside of the assembly so that the contents of the filter could drain back into the crankcase, it might. But I can't see why  or how it could make the least difference if the filter was oriented properly- ie with the entry and exit pipes on the top. Nor can I see how it could be a bad thing to have a better filter than the wotsit that BSA fitted - on the return side.
Also found that no-one seems to offer a neat in-line tap/ignition cut-out solution that'll go on a BSA (apart from balls and springs), so shall have to make one. I am not going to mess around draining the crankcase every time the thing has a mild fit of incontinence, even after the new sump plate arrives and is installed. Did it this morning and it's a boring way to start a ride.
Meantime I'm still waiting for the post-fairy to bring some shiny exhaust pipes and amplifiers from Armours to replace the Siamese I don't like much . . . Groily
Bill

Offline fido

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Re: in-line oil taps and filters
« Reply #9 on: 25.10. 2007 23:28 »
Not sure what you mean about the advice re. filters. Are SRM saying don't fit a filter at all or do fit a filter but put it in the feed rather than the return? *conf*

Online groily

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Re: in-line oil taps and filters
« Reply #10 on: 26.10. 2007 09:30 »
They don't fit one anywhere as far as I can understand Fido. Certainly don't supply or recommend anything, which given they're pretty smart (IMHO) I think is interesting. I thought some others on here might also find it interesting.  Does it mean they think a return side filter is useless? - I don't know. I didn't ask if they favour one with their end-feed quill conversion either, but I wasn't really calling them about this - just wanted a sump plate with a magnetic plug and a big 'ole in it wiv a thread! Which they have lots of and which might come today . . . I live in oily-fingered hope. Groily
Bill

Offline Pim

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Re: in-line oil taps and filters
« Reply #11 on: 26.10. 2007 09:43 »
hello, sorry to be off topic. But could someone explain to me what "wet sumping" is? I'm new to this world, and though I'm learning as much as i can, there is always so much more to learn:) maybe I've heard of the term in dutch, but I haven't in English. So anyone?
Slow but steady...

Offline fido

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Re: in-line oil taps and filters
« Reply #12 on: 26.10. 2007 12:44 »
Hi Pim,
our bikes have what they call dry sump engines, meaning that the oil is stored in a tank, away from the engine. As this tank is mounted higher than the crankcase it is possible for the oil to slowly drain down by gravity from the tank into the crankcase when the bike is not being used. There are built in devices to prevent this, in the form of ball & spring non-return valves. These devices rarely work perfectly and sometimes fail completely. This build up of oil in the crankcase can cause smoky exhaust on start up or sometimes oil sprayed out of the engine breather.

G/F DAVE

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Re: in-line oil taps and filters
« Reply #13 on: 26.10. 2007 13:48 »
I have used a return filter on my A10 for approx 18yrs & also have a alloy filter plate with magnetic plug fitted, never seen any metal particals on magnetic sump bung during oil changes. So filter is doing it,s job, much better than standard BSA tea strainer that was fiited as standard. As for restricting oil flow it doesn,t seem to be any problem, Also bsa fitted a filter inside BSA M20 oil tank,s on the return side, mind you I don,t know if I would fit a inline car type filter on my old M20 as I run straight 50w oil maybe a bit to thick for a paper filter, I don,t know why SRM don,t recommend a filter on return to tank. *eek* Dave........

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Re: in-line oil taps and filters
« Reply #14 on: 26.10. 2007 14:31 »
I reckon you've done the right thing G/F Dave. I'm still intending to do the same. If the thing's put in the right way up,  I can't see any reason not to - the oil will fill the filter and then carry on up to the tank cos there's owt to stop it unless the filter element is blocked (I use 20/50 usually). It couldn't drain back into the crankcase, and there will therefore be oil for the rocker feed take-off same as usual. Can't see a downside. Has to be a lot better than what's there, which is where I started. Your experience makes total sense to me. Glad to say that when I drained the crankcase yesterday there was nothing nasty visible (except loads of clean oil), which pleased me.  At the moment I'm trying to make a feed-line tap that works and will fit in the space available without my having to re-route the pipes in too ugly a fashion. But I'm also thinking about cause rather than symptoms - the A10 I had as a mad youth never did this, and it was the proverbial heap, went through several slung-together-on-a-budget-of- nothing engines and never appreciably wet-sumped. So I guess I'll have the plumbing apart, look at the pump etc and see if anything is obviously not kosher. As to a filter on the feed side - that could be a recipe for a disaster unless one could prime it easily every oil change . . . not sure it would ever be a good idea on a dry sump engine. And a double disaster if one had a tap tank-side of the filter, the filter drained into the crankcase overnight and it took a couple of mins for the pump to suck the filter full before any any new oil got where it's needed. Ah well, what do I know, back to the shed .  . Groily
Bill