Author Topic: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.  (Read 23000 times)

Online duTch

  • Ricketty Rocketty Golden Flashback
  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2011
  • Posts: 4516
  • Karma: 40
Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #30 on: 18.08. 2012 13:02 »
Thanks John,
                  I've read a few versions of A65 type being done, sounds too easy?
Can't the old grub screw just be left in, and drill out the ball and spring side-  (I think that's what you mean when you say"so that the ball and screw will fit through'), so long as the swarf is blown out??
 The other thing is, I've been toying with idea of one of these cast iron 'hi-flow' oil pumps from John Phelan(Sheffield Motorcycle Spares), so the ball may not seat so well and may need a soft insert of some kind to do the job?
 
Does anyone have any experience of these pumps?
          Cheers duTch
Started building in about 1977/8 a on average '52 A10 -built from bits 'n pieces never resto intended -maybe 'personalised'
Have a '74 850T Moto Guzzi since '92-best thing I ever bought doesn't need a kickstart 'cos it bump starts sooooooooo(mostly) easy
Australia

Online chaterlea25

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2009
  • Posts: 3108
  • Karma: 45
Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #31 on: 19.08. 2012 00:13 »
Hi Dutch,
I have no experience with the cast pumps on the A10, A friend of mine has had one fitted for quite a few years now and no issues or wetsumping
A lot of folk have issues dealing with the chicken man  ???? ???? ????
I got a NOS piston and suitable liner for my BSA L25 from him without any problems.
I think Kiddiminster Motorcycles used to sell iron bodied pumps as well ???
I would just carefully lap a narrow seat on the pump with a ball bearing, (glue the ball to a short length of tube)

I think there are dimensions for the screw, spring and ball on Beeza Bill's web pages but I cannot open them now for some reason???    http://bsa-a10.hailwood.com/index.html

Cheers
John
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Online duTch

  • Ricketty Rocketty Golden Flashback
  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2011
  • Posts: 4516
  • Karma: 40
Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #32 on: 20.08. 2012 09:39 »
Thanks for the info John,thought I'd replied but was trying to look at bills site, which says ;-
''Bandwidth Limit Exceeded
The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to the site owner reaching his/her bandwidth limit. Please try again later. '
     
 I'm not sure what you mean-'Chicken Man'?
  It seems that with this mod, the spring and ball are vulnerable to falling out when the pump is removed? This is why I suggest a small seat insert/ball retainer, between ball and pump?
 Is any reason though, why to not just drill out the aperture, to release existing spring and ball, and leave the grub screw intact?
  Any other feedback on cast iron pumps will be appreciated?

Cheers, duTch
Started building in about 1977/8 a on average '52 A10 -built from bits 'n pieces never resto intended -maybe 'personalised'
Have a '74 850T Moto Guzzi since '92-best thing I ever bought doesn't need a kickstart 'cos it bump starts sooooooooo(mostly) easy
Australia

Online BSA_54A10

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 1876
  • Karma: 31
    • BSA National
Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #33 on: 21.08. 2012 13:28 »
Well here is another thought from a bit left field.
Why bother to fix it ?
An ex club member used to drain his oil every time he took his A65 out.
He came home & before he even took off his helmet, ran a rag over the chain ( while it was hot ) then gave it a blast with chain lube.
pushed the bike off the centre stand & on to the side stand, turned off the motor whacked a small dish under the sump & remover the drain plug ( after market item ).
He then put a cut down funnel under the oil tank drain and drained the tank.
Put both plugs on a magnetic dish on top of the fuel cap.
Then we went inside for a leak & a few beers.
Rhett got something like 60,000 miles out of that bottom end which was suspect when he bought the bike.

The oil , which was always fairly clean was put into a container to be used on the next oil change for the F 100 ( truck ) as it had a decent oil filtering system.
So the Beesa got clean fresh oil every time it went out. and the truck got an oil change whenever he had accumulated 8 liters of ex-bsa oil.

The sump was a Devimead ( now SRM ) one which he pulled out the gauze and rotated it 90 deg so that the filter could go on with the drain bolt pointing to the left.
Bike Beesa
Trevor

Online muskrat

  • Global Moderator
  • Wise & Enlightened
  • **
  • Join Date: Jul 2009
  • Posts: 8022
  • Karma: 106
  • Lake Conjola NSW Oz
    • Shoalhaven Classic Motorcycle Club Inc
Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #34 on: 21.08. 2012 20:24 »
 I don't quite go that far Trev. The '51 gets it's plug pulled on return home and placed on fuel tank. She gets a fresh pint every week.
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS now A10CR, '76 XT500, '77 AG175 '83 CB1100F, '81 CB900F project.
Australia
Muskys Plunger A7

Offline cus

  • Valued Contributor
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jun 2009
  • Posts: 305
  • Karma: 4
Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #35 on: 21.08. 2012 22:42 »
G'day Trevor,
That would be a good incentive for me to not go for a ride.
If the bike was only used once a month or there abouts I could
probably handle that. Wouldn't it be easier to start her up
every couple of days,

Cus
56 G/Flash project

Online duTch

  • Ricketty Rocketty Golden Flashback
  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2011
  • Posts: 4516
  • Karma: 40
Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #36 on: 22.08. 2012 14:29 »
    I'm not going to rush into any mods for now, but like to know the options in advance, but reckon I can live with a combo of aforesaid ideas, like Cus' idea using the bike every couple of days or less, maybe every four hours,which is the plan, so it doesn't bleed down too much,but if it does bleed down(wetsump), it should pump back to tank fairly quick, at (~fast~)idle, and not blow everywhere(from breather,etc), and I'm planning to at least install a catch bottle on the breather in case? 
     Trevs' chain lube idea is good, that way it soaks in and doesn't just fling off, what I used to do when I had a chain before, but only every couple of days(daily use). That's one reason i like My Moto..!
    I reckon I'll just have to work it out, maybe drill a hole in the sump and weld in a nut that'll accommodate a drain plug, and then it's easy to drain off as Musky does, and I can use that to feed the hilux.
Started building in about 1977/8 a on average '52 A10 -built from bits 'n pieces never resto intended -maybe 'personalised'
Have a '74 850T Moto Guzzi since '92-best thing I ever bought doesn't need a kickstart 'cos it bump starts sooooooooo(mostly) easy
Australia

Offline iansoady

  • Valued Contributor
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jul 2010
  • Posts: 471
  • Karma: 9
Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #37 on: 22.08. 2012 16:36 »
I must say my A10 wet sumps far less than any of the several Nortons I've owned - it seems fine left for a couple of weeks whereas I ended up fitting an anti-drain valve (shock horror) to my last Commando even though the oil pump and everything else were in first class condition.

As a side thought I've never quite understood why these valves attract such criticism when Velo fitted them as standard to all the post-war singles and I've never heard of a problem with them.
Ian.
1962 Golden Flash (arrived)
1955 Velo Viper/Venom (departed)
2004 Triumph Tiger 955i (staying)

Online muskrat

  • Global Moderator
  • Wise & Enlightened
  • **
  • Join Date: Jul 2009
  • Posts: 8022
  • Karma: 106
  • Lake Conjola NSW Oz
    • Shoalhaven Classic Motorcycle Club Inc
Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #38 on: 22.08. 2012 20:20 »
 Dutch, got one (sump plate with nut) here already done, about 30 years ago, you can have. Got alloy ones on all mine.
If I leave mine (51 plunger) for more than a few weeks with the plug in it will fill the sump up to the drive side bearing then proceed to fill the primary as well.
My boss is Dutch and he wont spend a cent either. Just kidding mate. *smile*
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS now A10CR, '76 XT500, '77 AG175 '83 CB1100F, '81 CB900F project.
Australia
Muskys Plunger A7

Offline A10Boy

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 1075
  • Karma: 11
  • Solihull, Near Birmingham England.
Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #39 on: 24.08. 2012 15:22 »
I've had a valve with a switch wired to the cut out on my AJS for about two years now. It's part of the sub-concious starting regime to switch it on, and I've never forgotten yet. If I did forget it wouldn't start. I use it to switch off so I know it works.

Thats the Dove tap as advertised in the jampot. No connection.
Regards

Andy

1960 A10 - Black Golden Flash
Plus
1974 Kawasaki Z1a
Yam XJR 1300

Online Triton Thrasher

  • Scotland
  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Feb 2009
  • Posts: 1458
  • Karma: 20
Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #40 on: 24.08. 2012 18:05 »
If you use a valve in the oil feed line, with a long handle that, when in the closed position,  interferes with the kickstart, then you are unlikely to start the bike with the tap closed.

Not saying that you should put a tap in the oil line.

Offline lawnmowerman

  • Resident Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2009
  • Posts: 576
  • Karma: 8
  • 1959 Super Rocket. Kent, England
Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #41 on: 25.08. 2012 11:57 »
My SR wet sumps really badly since I removed the ball and spring out of the non-return valve fitted by the PO. With the NR valve fitted I could leave it for 3 months + without a problem. I do not use it as much as I should and leave it with the sump plug out over a tray to avoid filling up the primary.

I bought a Dove tap a while ago but I have not got round to plumbing it in yet. Has anyone fitted one yet as it looks a bit tight to fit vertically under the oil tank outlet and a bit difficult to get to under the gearbox next to a hot pipe. I do not really want to run it above the gearbox if I can avoid it.
 
Also where is a good place to go in the UK to get the plumbing parts - especially shortened oil pipes with the steel spring on the outside. I have seen plenty of full length ones.

Thanks

Jim
1959 A10 SR
1938 Wolseley 14/60
1955 Ferguson TEF20 tractor
1965 Ferguson 135 tractor
1952 Matchless G80 rigid
1960 BMW R60
1954 Matchless G80S
1955 Ariel 500 VH
1951 Sunbeam S7DL
1960 Matchless G12 with Watsonian Monza
......and loads of lawnmowers

Too old to Rock and Roll but too young to die  (Jethro Tull 1976)

Offline Goldy

  • Warwickshire, England
  • Resident Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2008
  • Posts: 619
  • Karma: 9
Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #42 on: 25.08. 2012 13:02 »
I really don't understand all this additional valve work that goes on. if the fork seals are leaking, do you fit a bucket to catch the oil. No you replace the seals.If a petrol tap leaks do you fit another tap to stop the leak.No you replace the tap. If oil is leaking into the sump then the non return or the oil pump are faulty, answer is to replace them.
Simple as that.
56 A10 Golden Flash - Restore, ride, relive.                                          
56 C12 BSA project ongoing

Online bsa-bill

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2006
  • Posts: 5341
  • Karma: 61
Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #43 on: 25.08. 2012 13:50 »
I'm tending to agree with Goldy on this although I do have and have used a non return valve on my first flash (it's residing in a drawer at the moment, the valve not the Flash *smiley4*)

but really although it can be a serious problem (oily rear tyre) I suspect for many it's a case of the bike being a wee bit not perfect, few of them I suspect were ever anywhere near perfect when in original use but our aspirations and expectations are now so much higher.

BSA of the day were not NASA
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Offline lawnmowerman

  • Resident Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2009
  • Posts: 576
  • Karma: 8
  • 1959 Super Rocket. Kent, England
Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #44 on: 25.08. 2012 23:06 »
Hi Goldy,

Having been an engineer all my life I agree with your logic, however changing the BSA fitted non-return valve may be simple to say but not so simple to do as it involves an engine-out job and splitting the crankcases.
What I am trying to achieve is a temporary fix so that I can enjoy riding the bike without having to drain the sump before use every time. When I need to strip the engine, of course I will replace the ball valve or do the A65 mod so that it is get-attable in the future but I do not think it is worth the work right now when everything else is running OK.

Jim
1959 A10 SR
1938 Wolseley 14/60
1955 Ferguson TEF20 tractor
1965 Ferguson 135 tractor
1952 Matchless G80 rigid
1960 BMW R60
1954 Matchless G80S
1955 Ariel 500 VH
1951 Sunbeam S7DL
1960 Matchless G12 with Watsonian Monza
......and loads of lawnmowers

Too old to Rock and Roll but too young to die  (Jethro Tull 1976)