Author Topic: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.  (Read 23019 times)

Offline wardleybob

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #75 on: 13.02. 2013 17:12 »
I have alterd my flash It is now the same as the a50/65s with a stronger spring  &ball directly behind the pump
Strait 40 oil no more problems plus no more spliting cases to access wardleybob

Offline wardleybob

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #76 on: 13.02. 2013 17:19 »
I have allterd my flash like the a50/65s. I put a stronger spring and ball directly behind the oil pump. No more spliting cases for access  I also use strait 40 oil wardleybob

Offline DazSeaton

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #77 on: 01.03. 2013 17:30 »
Don't tell anyone but I drain it into a clean container and put it back in the tank if it's not too old.
luv those alloy sump plates with the drain plug. Fitted to my three BSA's.
Cheers
That's what I wanted to know. Drain it and chuck it back in at the top. Never happened to me before as i rode it alot, but the dreaded DIY and an injury has left my bike standing for about 4 months.
cheers
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Offline BSA500

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #78 on: 02.03. 2013 11:29 »
My A7 stopped any sort of wet sumping after I had the oil pump rebuilt with an cast iron body. I didn't do this to stop the sumping but to prevent it from seizing up again and damaging the timing side bush. So if its quite bad a check on the pump wouldn't go amiss *eek*

Offline A10 JWO

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #79 on: 02.03. 2013 15:18 »
Until I can afford an SRM pump or cheaper Draganfly exchange, I carry a clean Flora butter dish in my ruck sack and a spanner. I drain the posh new ebay sump and put it back in the tank. A quick fix for now.

Colin

Offline A10Boy

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #80 on: 04.03. 2013 10:13 »
I have a dove type valve fitted on my AJS 31 CSR. You cant start the engine without it being switched on. It becomes part of the starting ritual, check oil, switch on fuel, switch on OIL, helmet, tickle carb, gloves, kick....... I know the arguement about the kill-wire failure, but that is the only risk. To test the wiring, I switch the engine off using the valve every few rides.

I saw a lovely shiney AJS at a show, there was a sticker on the Speedo saying "Switch Oil On" there was just a tap, no kill switch, thats gotta be a recipe for disaster.  *eek*



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Offline gavinoz

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #81 on: 04.03. 2013 10:29 »
sorry, back to Wardlybob, what exactly did you do to crankcase and how big a spring & ball etc.
(my crankcases are apart at the moment, so i can do mods.) is your oil pump std or SRM? Thanks, gav
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Online BSA_54A10

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #82 on: 22.03. 2013 20:13 »
First this we have to remember is that anti drain valves were not fitted to a lot of bikes because they were designed to be ridden every day so oil drain was not a problem unless the tank drained over night.
Next every second that the engine is running the small light spring s compressed & sitting in hot oil so it will loose its tension very quickly, thus you sould keep a couple in your parts bin & replace them whenever the engine is apart.
Finally, oil is the cheapest part that you can put into your motor.
So consider this;-
Put a sump with a drain bolt on the bike & cut a funnel to fit neatly under the oil tank with the bike on the side stand.
Whenever you come home from a ride pull the sump plug & oil drain plug.
Put both into a magnetic dish on top of your fuel tank.
Next ride replace both & fill tank with nice new clean oil.
This will double ( if not tripple ) the life of your bottom end.
The "waste" oil will be clean enough to go into your "tin top" or lawn mower, or mixed into blue smoke mix etc ( or even an M or B series with all balls & rollers where clean oil is not so critical )
Bike Beesa
Trevor

Offline Joolstacho

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #83 on: 03.04. 2013 11:24 »
BTW the Velo anti-drain plug is just a ball and spring like the Beeza. And they do wet sump if left. Thing is it's just a half hour job to fix because it's externally mounted in the feed line at the base of the oil tank, whereas with the Beeza it's a complete engine tear down.

Offline marathonpaul

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #84 on: 08.09. 2013 02:18 »
As Bob Wardley pointed out, one can modify the existing, in-case check valve by drilling out the original and replacing with an A65 spring.

I’ve decided to document my efforts do that modification.

I first measured the depth to the captive check ball and found it to be 16mm or 5/8”. I was concerned about drilling too far so I wanted to tape/mark the drill bit for depth control. (Later I determined that this was really not necessary)
I decided to drill the hole twice, once with a 9/32 drill, then with the 5/16’s that Bob originally recommended. Next time I would try to see if the ball and spring can be freed with the 9/32 hole, now knowing the original ball is only 8/32 (1/4).
I used lots of grease on the drill bits and cleaned each often to capture as many chips as possible. I also used a small screw driver blade wrapped with a single layer of cloth, and lightly greased to pull as many chips as I could find. I must have done this about 10-15 times (after the spring/ball had been removed) before I was satisfied I had them all.
The ball came out quickly with a magnet on a small screw driver blade, but the spring was a bear. At first I thought it was a chip blocking the spring, but as I used a small dental pick, it became obvious that all manner of junk (fibers) had collected in the spring. It acted as a small filter which was good to keep the matter from the bearing, but bad as the spring lost it’s ability to push the check ball.

Bob mentioned counter sinking the oil pump orifice to make a better seal. I had no mechanical way to accomplish this evenly. I did notice the new SRM pump was very slightly counter sunk already. The original check ball was  ¼, with a 6mm ball being  different by .013” in diameter or .007” per side. The ¼ ball is slightly bigger and more available at ones local bicycle shop.  I used another  ¼ ball along with a short piece of tubing to make a lapping tool. With some fine lapping compound, I spun it around in the pump opening. After a couple of minutes, there was a small band visible in the pump body, which assured a good fit/seal.

When I assemble it, I found the A65 spring was too short. I had ordered two kits (The A65 kit includes one ball and one spring) so I used the second spring and cut some off. Final fitting had the two springs expose about 5 mm beyond the edge of the hole. I greased the ball and stuck it on the oil pump to aid my assembly. The rest was easy….except. The gasket supplied by SRM had an extra piece that needed to be cut off, and used under the pump’s forward mounting hole. This was to ensure the pump was “level” with the case, and eliminate any possible binding.

The result has been great with no short term wet sumping.  I’ll have to update this thread when I can leave the bike sit for a few weeks.

Adm edit: errors in the pictures, & please see the forum rules regarding picture posting. Fixed link to the picture series  >

http://s19.photobucket.com/user/marathonpaul/media/BSA%20A10%20wet%20sumping%20project/DSCF6595.jpg.html#/user/marathonpaul/media/BSA%20A10%20wet%20sumping%20project/DSCF6617.jpg.html?&_suid=137871989593105686902947935697
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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #85 on: 08.09. 2013 05:02 »
Good work Paul, thanks for posting.
My only concern with your set up is the 9mm of preload on the spring (5mm out of hole + 4mm the ball will push it back). I just tested mine (the cafe is apart again) and it only takes 2oz to lift the ball off it's seat.
Wondering if anyone here has a SRM set up and knows where the spring sits before the ball and pump are assembled.
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Offline marathonpaul

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #86 on: 08.09. 2013 12:00 »
Yes, it was a guess. I had no way to measure the tension of the stock A65 spring. I was afraid to just use both springs, as I would rather err on the possible leaking rather than block the oil flow. The SRM pump does a good job on its own (from other reports) and that ball doesn't seem to need much pressure to seal the residual oil past the pump.

It is easily changed by pulling the oil pump and replacing the spring.

I'll be interested should someone else have some input.

Thanks,
Paul
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Online Brian

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #87 on: 09.09. 2013 02:19 »
I didnt want to be the doom and gloom person but unfortunately I think this modification has the potential to destroy the engine.

In the original design the gallery that delivers oil to the timing bush is just behind the ball, when the motor is running and the pump pumping the ball is pushed back to expose this gallery and allow full delivery of oil to the timing bush.

With this modification the ball will get pushed back but the oil has to then go around the ball and through the spring to get to the existing gallery, with the pressure involved quite likely the spring will be fully compressed effectively blocking the oil flow.

The only way this modification could work is to drill a new oil gallery from just behind where the new ball will sit through to the existing gallery, you would then have to block off the existing gallery otherwise the oil pressure will go up and try to push the ball forward possible making the ball "dance" around in the hole.

I would not recommend this modifcation without a redesign of the gallery system.

The only advantage of this modification is that you can access the ball and spring to clean it, it will not provide any better guard against wet sumping.

No doubt there will be some that will disagree with me but I would suggest you have a very close look at how it all works. I know the A65's had something along these lines and I dont have a set of A65 cases to study but I am sure they would have had a different gallery set up, if not it would explain why they self destructed at a much higher rate than A10's ever did.

Online RichardL

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #88 on: 09.09. 2013 04:58 »
Since my timing-side covers are off, I was trying some arithmetic on this issue. I measured the hole leading to the ball at 0.216" D. This is an oilway of 0.037 sq. in. To create an oilway of equal area (before the oil tries to get around the circumference of a 1/4" ball), the ball must be pushed back 0.054". I know that's not enough to expose the gallery that feeds the timing bush, as Brian points out.  So, without going into the simple arithmetic, for the oilway around the ball to equal the area leaving the pump, the ball would need to be in an 0.330" D. hole. I'm not sure if this is enough to cause the ball to dance around in the hole (again, as Brian mentions). Even if these dimensional concepts seem to make sense, it is only me doing arithmetic and not really knowing what the result would be if, say, the ball sat in an 0.330 D. hole.

The other calc I want to work on, for fun I suppose, is what is the correct spring constant to assure that the pump at the lowest allowed oil pressure, or less, moves the ball where it should go? Knowing this, one could avoid having a lighter-than-necessary spring in place and, maybe, avoid wet sumping because the spring is stronger, but still safe.  

Richard L.
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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #89 on: 09.09. 2013 08:05 »
I also had the same concerns when having a good inspection of the A10's original set up last night. With the 1/4" ball in the 5/16" hole there's only a 1/32" gap around the ball.
Cheers
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