Author Topic: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.  (Read 23021 times)

Offline Josh Cox

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A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« on: 01.06. 2009 13:23 »
Hi,

Was wondering what other ideas people have used to stop their A10's from wet sumping / making a terrible mess on start up.

Have looked at the anti-wet sumping valves you can splice/fit into the oil supply line to the oil pump, have my reservations about this being a good idea, being a firm believer in Murphys Law (of which I am sure all here are quite conversant).

The idea of sticking a component that will one day fail between the oil supply and the oil pump doesn't work for me.

What about hooking the sump drain/breather to the oil tank breather ? ( pumping the oil back to the tank?), suggestions ?.

Black 1953 Golden Flash Plunger

Online RichardL

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #1 on: 01.06. 2009 16:32 »
I believe it is a matter of a well-seating ball beaing check valve behind the oil pump. (I'm sticking my neck out by citing this without reference to my books.) It could be that the spring behind your ball bearing is weak or the ball and/or seat are worn. I think you could epoxy a ball on the end of a dowel and, using some valve-lapping compound while twisting the dowel as if lapping a valve seat, assure a good seal. Obviously, this involves some dismantling and, less obviously, I could be completely off track.

Richard L.
Plan on signing up for the world-wide 2017 DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDE on September 30, 2018. Watch website at https://www.gentlemansride.com for details.

Offline trevinoz

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #2 on: 01.06. 2009 22:51 »
Josh, don't even think about using the so-called "anti wet sumping valve". I have seen the results of one not operating on a Commando. Not pretty.
I know one bloke with a ball valve in the supply line and he forgot to open it one day. The engine started to grab but he caught it in time and stopped the engine. The engine still seems OK but obviously many thousands of miles have been taken off its life.
I tried to seat the ball in my Flash by giving it a whack but it was not successful, as I have found.
Next engine I build, I will do as Richard suggests and also fit a new spring.
You could also modify the whole set-up and make it like the A65, drill a larger hole through the crankcase behind the pump so that the ball seats on the pump port and fit a longer spring to keep the ball seated.
A pipe from the breather is also a good idea, you can catch the oil before it splatters everywhere.
Trev.

Richard

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #3 on: 01.06. 2009 23:07 »
Or______fit a tap in line with a cut out push button switch next to it so that when the tap is closed the lever is pressing the button therefore shorting the magneto out so you cannot start the bike untill you open the tap
Richard

Offline BSA_54A10

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #4 on: 02.06. 2009 01:35 »
instead of buying the anti wet sump valve spend about the same money on a deeper sump with a drain bolt in the side ( or at an angle on the corner) not one of the idiot designs with a drain bolt in the center. Fit it with the drain bolt on the left side.
When you come back from a run pop the bike on its side stand, slip a drain under the bike and pull out the drain plug.
Get a magnetic spark plug socket and cut it short to fit the sump plug then you can do the whole thing with a long extension on your 3/4" drive socket set and keep your hands clean.

Bike Beesa
Trevor

Online RichardL

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #5 on: 02.06. 2009 05:28 »
Maybe an unnecessay edit to my previous post, but thinking about the ball-on-a-stick lapping method, I wish to amend that to ball-on-a-tube. So doing, the center of the ball automatically falls on the centerline of the tube, for uniform lapping.

Richard L. 
Plan on signing up for the world-wide 2017 DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDE on September 30, 2018. Watch website at https://www.gentlemansride.com for details.

Online Brian

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #6 on: 02.06. 2009 07:35 »
Josh, I wouldnt put anything in the oil supply line regardless of how foolproof its meant to be, if it fails it costs you a engine. I have also seen the result of someone forgetting to turn a tap in the oil line on.

The engine breather pipe is something I have experimented with quite a lot recently with mixed results. Firstly you cant connect the engine breather pipe to the oil tank breather, this will stop both the engine and oil tank from breathing by pressurising the whole system.
I put another tube into the top of the oil tank and ran the breather to that. I did it to a plunger A10 and a plunger A7 and a swingarm A10. On both the plunger models it seems to have worked quite well but on the swingarm bike it caused oil leaks at the rocker boxes. It must have increased the pressure inside the engine. However the swingarm bike is a lot higher state of tune than either of the plungers, 8.5-1 compression etc and it gets ridden fairly hard. Initially it seemed to work ok but after about 1,000 miles I noticed the oil leaks and as soon as I disconnected the breather and let it breathe to atmosphere the oil leaks stopped.
I have found that after a engine rebuild they tend to pump a bit of oil out the breather for about 1,000 miles then as they run in it stops. You can run the breather into a small bottle sitting behind the gearbox while the engine is being run in and then remove it at a later date. Alternatively you can just let it leak a bit of oil for the first few rides.

Richard

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #7 on: 04.06. 2009 22:58 »
 I have also seen the result of someone forgetting to turn a tap in the oil line on.

Ah you did not read the post if the tap is not turned on then the bike will not start as the tap lever will be pressing a cut out button which would be connected to the Mag end cap shorting it to earth.
So if this system is used damage to the engine would not be because you failed to turn the tap on.

Online Brian

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #8 on: 04.06. 2009 23:21 »
Agreed Richard, providing that the cut out system is 100 percent beyond possibility of failure.

Offline rocket man

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #9 on: 06.06. 2009 11:20 »
just fit a sump kit with a drain bolt on it and empty the oil into a clean container and put it back in
or like me empty the oil out and put new in that way you have a constant supply ove fresh oil
thats if you only use it now and again in the olden days people used them every day so didint have the problem
and i would never trust a valve ive spent thousends on my engine so im keeping to my method its the
safest way ove doing it   

Offline mitch

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #10 on: 14.05. 2011 14:18 »
I see that this conversation is quite old and quite a bit has been said on the subject.
I have just completed a BSA A10 Super Rocket rebuild and thought i would share my experience.
Despite my best efforts and lots of attention to detail, my rebuild initially resulted in a really bad case of wet sumping and serious build up of sump pressure, and i decided to split the motor and check to sort it once and for all. i had followed the manual religiously and had obvioulsy missed some thing important.
1) The anti flow back value is located behind the delivery side of the oil pump. This valve is a small ball and spring, located by a grub screw. This is accessed from the inside of the crank case, just next to the timig side main bearing. That is right guys, split the motor to get to it!
Now the part that took me by surprise. I find absolutely nothing on this in the Haynes manual, (only a pic in the parts list). So for those rebuilding a motor, watch out, this part is easily missed and as i could not find any mention in the manual, i expect others may also miss this point. (Ok yeah right, i'm no expert on A10 motors, so had to find out the hard way).
2) So the rest seems quite obvious, if you want to stop wet sumping, this is the right place to do it (with the motor split) drill out the punch marks that retain the grub screw (probably using a 3 to 4 mm drill bit, and don't penetrate teep, just a fraction deeper than the punch mark it self). Once the punch marks are drilled, the grub screw should come our quite easily, revealing a spring and small metal ball (valve). The spring and ball should live in a world of oil in a healthy running engine, but if the machine has stood or has been stripped, you may find a ball of rust, grime, dirt or gasket compoind in the valve cavity.
3) Restoring this part is real easy, several ways are mentioned. (assuming you have cleaned the years of dirt and grease away and the casing clean up process is behind you). I used a new ball and new spring (note that this is a really light duty spring, much smaller than the spring used in the pressure relief valve). Locate the ball, use a suitably sized flat headed pin punch and 1 pound hammer and give it a smart tap, to establish a sealing seat for the ball. Now for a quick proof test. Locate the ball, spring and seat in the retaining grub screw. Now from the oil pump side (outer side) of the casing, you should be able to blow (lip contact required, yes guys, just your mouth!) through the oil pump delivery hole, and the valve should hold light pressure. If you blow hard, you will actually be able to lift the ball off its seat. it will rumble as the ball lifts and seats itslef rapidly whilst you blow. If that works OK, then give it a light suck, and cover the hole with your tongue. If the seat is good the vacuum you cause (with the mouth suck), will be sealed in with your tongue. I had this hold for about a minute, before I broke the vacuum my slef.
For the technical boffins with workshop facilities, i expect some tool or tester may be avaialble, but for me (the home restorer)this worked quite fine.  I really have nothing against getting up close and personal with my BESA for some tongue action!
4) If the above process works out OK, then you can permanently return the ball, spring and grub screw. Your choice on how to securethe grub screw safely and permanently. The screw should be screwed in tight and locked. I prefer using lock tight thread lock compound. (cant stand the hammer and punch method my self).

After following these few steps, i assembled the motor and so far so good. No wet sumping, and good oil pressure and flow back to the oil tank.

Offline chaz

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #11 on: 14.05. 2011 14:27 »
I used Polly Palmers anti wet sump valve on an A65 for years without any problem, I couldnt be a$$ed to drain the sump every time I want to go out for a ride, some people do like work!!!
allways willing to learn
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Offline Rich

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #12 on: 14.05. 2011 16:28 »
I have used a valve in line on the A10 for years, however on the next rebuild I will try to seat the ball better, as the tapping method did not work for me

Online muskrat

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #13 on: 14.05. 2011 21:28 »
G'day Mitch,
                 good one.
 I have had my A's for quite a time now and that part was overlooked a few times. Now it's the first part to be replaced any time the cases are apart.
 Good of you to post your experience.
I have slept on my bike, but that's all, really!!! *eek*
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS now A10CR, '76 XT500, '77 AG175 '83 CB1100F, '81 CB900F project.
Australia
Muskys Plunger A7

Offline A10Boy

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #14 on: 01.06. 2011 14:11 »
I fitted one of the Dove taps on the old AJS, this has a cut out switch and is foolproof. - Good job really.
Regards

Andy

1960 A10 - Black Golden Flash
Plus
1974 Kawasaki Z1a
Yam XJR 1300