Author Topic: anti wet sump valve linked to mag cutout  (Read 1853 times)

Online Triton Thrasher

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Re: anti wet sump valve linked to mag cutout
« Reply #15 on: 25.10. 2018 18:18 »
Rule 1 about safety interlocks, such as oil taps wired to the kill wire is that the day you need them is the day they don’t work.

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Re: anti wet sump valve linked to mag cutout
« Reply #16 on: 25.10. 2018 19:11 »
Lawnmowerman - presumably it's designed to earth through the pipe thread - meaning it will not work (as a mag cutout) if mounted inline with rubber pipe. Presemably the manufacturers expect it to be mounted directly to the tank or engine.
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

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Re: anti wet sump valve linked to mag cutout
« Reply #17 on: 26.10. 2018 11:03 »
Lawnmowerman - presumably it's designed to earth through the pipe thread - meaning it will not work (as a mag cutout) if mounted inline with rubber pipe. Presemably the manufacturers expect it to be mounted directly to the tank or engine.
That is what I thought RD. I would think that the majority of valves would be mounted in the middle of a rubber pipe run. It is a pity if they have not thought it through and incorporated an earth connection as the valve looks quite well made - does not inspire confidence. If not already fitted, it may be possible to connect an earth tag to the body of the valve but for £43 you would have thought it would be already done.
All will be revealed when I see one on Sunday.

Jim

1959 A10 SR
1938 Wolseley 14/60
1955 Ferguson TEF20 tractor
1965 Ferguson 135 tractor
1952 Matchless G80 rigid
1960 BMW R60
1954 Matchless G80S
1955 Ariel 500 VH
1951 Sunbeam S7DL
1960 Matchless G12 with Watsonian Monza
......and loads of lawnmowers

Too old to Rock and Roll but too young to die  (Jethro Tull 1976)

Offline RogerSB

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Re: anti wet sump valve linked to mag cutout
« Reply #18 on: 26.10. 2018 11:59 »
I'm assuming this is a straight through on / off switch with a contact to earth the cut out on the mag when the switch is in the off (ie no oil flow) position. So no internal valve to be effected by a no suction at the oil pump scenario. Do others agree or disagree?

Also there would not be a lot of room (if any) to fit the switch between the oil tank and a standard BSA type oil pipe.  I would think into the crankcase is a possibility but that's not a very accessible position with the return pipe just above and also the speedo cable in the way.

But I like the idea though.

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Re: anti wet sump valve linked to mag cutout
« Reply #19 on: 26.10. 2018 12:15 »
I'm assuming this is a straight through on / off switch with a contact to earth the cut out on the mag when the switch is in the off (ie no oil flow) position. So no internal valve to be effected by a no suction at the oil pump scenario. Do others agree or disagree?

Also there would not be a lot of room (if any) to fit the switch between the oil tank and a standard BSA type oil pipe.  I would think into the crankcase is a possibility but that's not a very accessible position with the return pipe just above and also the speedo cable in the way.

But I like the idea though.

Agreed Roger but looking at the pics of the valve there is no earth connection visible. It looks like the switch connects the brass strip to the body of the valve when in the off position.
My central heating oil valve is fitted above the gearbox. I fitted a right angle connector to the feed at the engine pointing upwards and used rubber pipe. It would have been possible to hide the valve below the gearbox but accessibility would have been a problem as it would have been close to the exhaust pipe.

Jim
1959 A10 SR
1938 Wolseley 14/60
1955 Ferguson TEF20 tractor
1965 Ferguson 135 tractor
1952 Matchless G80 rigid
1960 BMW R60
1954 Matchless G80S
1955 Ariel 500 VH
1951 Sunbeam S7DL
1960 Matchless G12 with Watsonian Monza
......and loads of lawnmowers

Too old to Rock and Roll but too young to die  (Jethro Tull 1976)

Offline RogerSB

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Re: anti wet sump valve linked to mag cutout
« Reply #20 on: 26.10. 2018 12:31 »
Agreed Roger but looking at the pics of the valve there is no earth connection visible. It looks like the switch connects the brass strip to the body of the valve when in the off position.

I think a contact under the switch knob makes contact with the brass strip when in the off position. The earth cut out connector is in the red sleeve you can see under the switch and you run a wire from that to the mag cut out terminal (I think). (edit): Switch itself is earthed via the body to crankcase or some other metal part of the bike (I think).

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Re: anti wet sump valve linked to mag cutout
« Reply #21 on: 26.10. 2018 13:29 »
That is how I see it Roger but there is no obvious way of connecting an earth wire to the body of the valve apart from  some sort of earth clamp around the body which introduces a fault liability. A proper earth terminal should be incorporated into the design to reduce any potential malfunctions which could end up in costing you a new engine.
Jim
1959 A10 SR
1938 Wolseley 14/60
1955 Ferguson TEF20 tractor
1965 Ferguson 135 tractor
1952 Matchless G80 rigid
1960 BMW R60
1954 Matchless G80S
1955 Ariel 500 VH
1951 Sunbeam S7DL
1960 Matchless G12 with Watsonian Monza
......and loads of lawnmowers

Too old to Rock and Roll but too young to die  (Jethro Tull 1976)

Offline RogerSB

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Re: anti wet sump valve linked to mag cutout
« Reply #22 on: 26.10. 2018 15:09 »
That is how I see it Roger but there is no obvious way of connecting an earth wire to the body of the valve apart from  some sort of earth clamp around the body which introduces a fault liability. A proper earth terminal should be incorporated into the design to reduce any potential malfunctions which could end up in costing you a new engine.
Jim

Jim, It'll be interesting to hear what they say about that - if you get the chance on Sunday.

In my muddled electrickery thinking wouldn't the switch body itself have to be touching a metal part of the bike (ie say screwed into the crankcase or oil tank).  I think that's how it's earthed. If mounted beween a rubber oil pipe then yes, a separate earth would be needed and that's where a purpose built connector to earth the switch itself would be useful (once again - I think, so I'm happy to be put right by anyone).

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Re: anti wet sump valve linked to mag cutout
« Reply #23 on: 28.10. 2018 16:35 »
Just got back from Ardingly.

I found Steve Marks's stand where he had the oil valves for sale and had a look at one. They are based on the commercially available stainless ball valves commonly used for central heating oil but they have a clever custom made housing which fits around the valve and holds the switch mechanism with the brass contact segment.

I asked Steve about the earth wire connection and he said that the body of the valve is either screwed into the crankcase or oil tank (provided it is not rubber mounted) via a suitable fitting/adaptor to earth the body which is as I suspected. However he did show me that provision has been made for connecting an earth wire via a small semi circular cut out in the body and is clamped against the valve body using a small torx head grub screw which has been tapped through the switch housing.
This would be necessary to make it work if the valve is to be fitted in the middle of a rubber oil hose.

I think I will probably go "belt and braces" and connect the switch to the crankcase union or the tank union via a solid piece of pipe or brass fittings in addition to the earth wire. I may need to earth the tank if I go that way as I seem remember that they are rubber mounted.

It is probably advisable to use the oil switch to stop the engine after riding for several reasons:
- To confirm the switch is still working ok.
- To keep the brass contact strip clean.
- So you do not forget to switch the oil off.

The valves are available in a male - male and male - female configuration. As with commercially available valves female - female is not available.

I would have bought one there and then but I noticed that the male end did not have a chamfer to accept an olive or a swaged pipe. Apparently the tool to do the job is arriving Monday so the whole stock will have the chamfer put in by the end of the week so I will ring him and order one then.

Jim
1959 A10 SR
1938 Wolseley 14/60
1955 Ferguson TEF20 tractor
1965 Ferguson 135 tractor
1952 Matchless G80 rigid
1960 BMW R60
1954 Matchless G80S
1955 Ariel 500 VH
1951 Sunbeam S7DL
1960 Matchless G12 with Watsonian Monza
......and loads of lawnmowers

Too old to Rock and Roll but too young to die  (Jethro Tull 1976)

Offline RogerSB

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Re: anti wet sump valve linked to mag cutout
« Reply #24 on: 28.10. 2018 20:14 »
Thanks Jim, for an excellent detailed report.
Since getting paranoid and removing my anti wet sumping valve last year I've found if I don't start my bike for about 3 weeks the oil level in the tank is lower by about 8 to10mm. Any more than that and I drain the sump, so to me it sounds a pretty good ready-made option to alleviate that during the winter months. I'm thinking it would be useful to be able to turn to it to the off position during those longer lay up periods but keep it permanently turned to the on position in the better weather conditions and when riding regularly.

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Offline coater87

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Re: anti wet sump valve linked to mag cutout
« Reply #25 on: 28.10. 2018 21:37 »
 You know those horror movies when you know the characters shouldn't do it, but they do anyway?

 This is that movie.

 Lee
Central Wisconsin in the U.S.

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Re: anti wet sump valve linked to mag cutout
« Reply #26 on: 29.10. 2018 10:35 »
As Lawnmowerman reminds us, the oil tank is rubber mounted, so unlikely to provide a suitable earth for the switch. Must admit I hadn't considered that.
Another issue arises, though - what material is the ball's cup made of? If it's PTFE, that's fine, but if nylon there could be an issue due to oil temperature. PTFE has a max working temp of 250 deg C, nylon around 110. That's not important for most of us, but remember both I and another forum member had very high oil temperatures on the first run after a rebuild. In my case the tank was far too hot to touch, sufficiently so that I was concerned about the paint on it. Was it over 100 deg? Maybe, but I didn't think to put my IR thermometer on it. Certainly would have been in the risky area for nylon, albeit only for the first ten miles or so.
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

Offline RogerSB

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Re: anti wet sump valve linked to mag cutout
« Reply #27 on: 29.10. 2018 12:51 »
If you have metal oil pipes from crankcase to tank surely that would make the tank an earth.

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Offline RogerSB

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Re: anti wet sump valve linked to mag cutout
« Reply #28 on: 29.10. 2018 12:55 »
but they do anyway?

Nobody has done it - we're just discussing it and the possibilities.

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Re: anti wet sump valve linked to mag cutout
« Reply #29 on: 29.10. 2018 14:23 »
I think that the standard oil pipes have a protective steel wrapping which may be in contact with, but not be properly bonded to the fittings at each end and has a rubber core. I would not want to trust the steel wrapping to carry such a vital earth feed. Solid copper pipes are a possibility but vibration fractures need to be considered.
It may be ok to use a short piece at the crankcase end possibly with some compression or soldered fittings up to the valve and then rubber pipe or the steel wrapped pipe from the valve to the tank.

Jim
1959 A10 SR
1938 Wolseley 14/60
1955 Ferguson TEF20 tractor
1965 Ferguson 135 tractor
1952 Matchless G80 rigid
1960 BMW R60
1954 Matchless G80S
1955 Ariel 500 VH
1951 Sunbeam S7DL
1960 Matchless G12 with Watsonian Monza
......and loads of lawnmowers

Too old to Rock and Roll but too young to die  (Jethro Tull 1976)