Author Topic: anti wet sump valve linked to mag cutout  (Read 1840 times)

Offline RogerSB

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Re: anti wet sump valve linked to mag cutout
« Reply #45 on: 31.10. 2018 09:50 »
 *smile* Just like oil - a lot of different and strong opinions here - along with some really interesting comments.

This is my third Golden Flash, my other two didn't wet sump at all, well, not that I was ever aware of - but that was in the 60s and 70s and they were ridden just about every day summer and winter.

Same with a Matchless I commuted on every working day for years in the mid 80s through to early 90s and a C15, which I completely rebuilt for my wife to ride in the 80s. I wasn't even aware of wet sumping in those days and happily used those bikes in total ignorence.

It's only through not riding regularly during the UK winter months in later years that it's affected me. When I bought my current GF a couple of years ago and became aware of wet sumping (on here - because then my bike didn't) that I looked at the oil supply pipe to crankcase only to find that the bike I bought had an anti wet sumping valve fitted, which as mentioned previously I've since removed.

So, I suppose, the one cure that no-one can refute is to ride our bikes regularly so the problem won't exist.

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Re: anti wet sump valve linked to mag cutout
« Reply #46 on: 01.11. 2018 10:31 »
When we rode our bikes on a daily basis, wet-sumping seemed an old wives tale. Nowadays though, for those of us who only ride occasionally for pleasure, it is a PITA.
If I leave my GF for more than a week, then I have to go through the wet-sump-ritual. Get on the floor, undo drain bung and wait ten minutes for oil to drain through gauze. Refit bung. Find funnel. Find paper filters. Pour oil back into tank through filter. Hardly encourages me to ride it when I have other bikes that rarely if ever require that ritual.
Several solutions have been expounded on this post so far. The device put forward in the opening post clearly has merit but, apart from the cost, one would also need to change the magneto end plate and fit another stop button somewhere for when one wants to stop the motor without turning off the oil. And where does one find an appropriate mag end plate? The ones I see advertised are screw-on, but all my K mags have an end cap held with two screws.
So I’ve got to considering the matter further, and it seems to me the answer is to put a valve on the pressure side, thereby obviating the risk associated with one on the suction. Now we’re told BSA fitted one such valve – but it’s in the bowels of the engine (unlike the singles where it’s accessible in the timing cover). Anyone who can design what is essentially a serviceable item and require the engine to be taken out and completely stripped to get to it is an idiot, not an engineer.
So can we fit one where it is serviceable? I don’t have a spare crankcase half on my bench to refer to, so I ask anyone who has – is there enough ‘meat’ in the pump mounting boss to counterbore the pressure feed in order to fit a spring and ball? If there is, a light countersink of the outlet on the pump would enable an anti-sumping valve to be fitted where it could at least be serviced (if I recall correctly, the BSA pump holes are round, unlike Triumph where they are a slot).
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

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Re: anti wet sump valve linked to mag cutout
« Reply #47 on: 01.11. 2018 10:39 »
...is there enough ‘meat’ in the pump mounting boss to counterbore the pressure feed in order to fit a spring and ball? If there is, a light countersink of the outlet on the pump would enable an anti-sumping valve to be fitted where it could at least be serviced (if I recall correctly, the BSA pump holes are round, unlike Triumph where they are a slot).
I don't have personal experience of this mod but I believe it is possible. Isn't this the way the BSA later twins had it? There is a website somewhere that shows various mods, including this one. Someone will pop up later with a link.


Later:
http://www.geocities.com/beezabill/
I clicked on that link but I got this message from Malwarebytes:


Some discussion about BeezaBill here: https://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=56.0

Maybe someone here has downloaded the articles to their own computer.

Offline Swarfcut

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Re: anti wet sump valve linked to mag cutout
« Reply #48 on: 01.11. 2018 11:00 »
   GB.. You are correct. The A50 and A65 Unit twins have the ball valve in the same pressure fed oilway to the timing bush, but the ball is positioned directly on the back of the oil pump body and is then easily accessed by removing the pump. The ball valve seating is machined into the pump body. Plenty of information available how to do it.  In essence the oilway is bored to suit the ball, and the spring has to be supported from inside the crankcase in such a way that oil pressure can move the ball off the seat enough to allow  oil to the timing bush.  Have a look at the link Musky  posted in the Sludge Trap and Pistons Saga recently.    The main bearing conversion includes details about relocating the valve.
 

  Now to upset the purists.  A10 and A50/65 Oil pumps share the same basic gear housing dimensions, so building up a pump with a later ball valve seat type housing and gears is possible.  The gears changed profile and number of teeth over the years, but can be swapped as matching pairs.

  Swarfy.

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Re: anti wet sump valve linked to mag cutout
« Reply #49 on: 01.11. 2018 11:34 »
Sounds interesting. Anyone have a pic of the business end of the A65 pump? I presume it's countersunk for the ball the way I envisioned but await to be enlightened.
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

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Re: anti wet sump valve linked to mag cutout
« Reply #50 on: 01.11. 2018 11:54 »
G'day fellas.
Yesterday evening I planned to ride the A7 plunger to work today. Been a month since I rode her. Checked the oil tank and yep it was empty. 60% in the sump, 40% in the primary. Took no more than 10 minutes to drain the sump and the primary to the right level. This morning she started 1st kick and ran beautifully.
I really can't see the drama. Sell the BSA to someone that doesn't mind putting time into the pleasure and buy 2 whizz bangs. The BSA will still be going long after the other two have expired  *rant*
Cheers
The A65 type is here with lots of other mods. RIP Beeza Bill. http://bsa-a10.hailwood.com/
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS now A10CR, '76 XT500, '77 AG175 '83 CB1100F, '81 CB900F project.
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Offline Swarfcut

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Re: anti wet sump valve linked to mag cutout
« Reply #51 on: 01.11. 2018 12:07 »
  Try this.  Here is what a good  A65 Pump looks like.

 Swarfy

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Re: anti wet sump valve linked to mag cutout
« Reply #52 on: 01.11. 2018 13:05 »
The A65 type is here with lots of other mods. RIP Beeza Bill. http://bsa-a10.hailwood.com/
Maybe that's the site I was thinking of.

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Re: anti wet sump valve linked to mag cutout
« Reply #53 on: 01.11. 2018 16:21 »
Thanks for the pic and link fellas. So the pump needs a countersink and the case a counterbore for valve and spring.  Makes me wonder why we worry about in-line valve alternatives when on the face of it this mod is easy. Will be looking into it when I pull the cover to get the dynamo off. Strength of spring is the only apparent unknown - maybe the A65 can help here.
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

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Re: anti wet sump valve linked to mag cutout
« Reply #54 on: 01.11. 2018 18:34 »

 
Quote
...... Strength of spring is the only apparent unknown - maybe the A65 can help here...

 The A65/50 springs are different, but the same 1/4" ball I posted a pic of the two for comparison a little while ago...been discussed extensively in the past, so a search would probably find it
Started building in about 1977/8 a on average '52 A10 -built from bits 'n pieces never resto intended -maybe 'personalised'
Have a '74 850T Moto Guzzi since '92-best thing I ever bought doesn't need a kickstart 'cos it bump starts sooooooooo(mostly) easy
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Online chaterlea25

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Re: anti wet sump valve linked to mag cutout
« Reply #55 on: 01.11. 2018 21:20 »
Hi RD and All,
I posted photos of the modification  that was done by SRM when they did the end feed conversion the engine for my RGS some time ago but cannot find it now

If the seating for the ball is wide then the spring pressure per sq mm. of the seat drops off rapidly in proportion to the seat area
Ideally a ball will seat against the sharp edge of the hole in the pump body this gives maximum spring pressure /over seating area
I have fitted several SRM pumps to bikes and just rotated the ball against the pump face with hand pressure
This has been enough to seal the ball against the pump
On my own SR I gave the ball a very light tap against the pump face, It surprised me how much of a "seat" appeared *eek*
When fitting the pump ala A65 great care is needed to locate the gasket so it does not interfere with the spring and ball. I make my own gaskets ensuring a tight fit on the screws and some clearance around the oil delivery hole
even a fibre from the gasket will cause the ball not to seat properly

SRM sell the same spring and ball for A10 and A65
The grub screw length is a question when doing the mod??
Hopefully I will remember to pull out the RGS project bottom end tomorrow and take some measurements and photos

John
 
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1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline Swarfcut

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Re: anti wet sump valve linked to mag cutout
« Reply #56 on: 02.11. 2018 08:58 »
 
 Another pesky thought about that ball and its seat.

    Seems to me that on the original A10 set up, oil pressure pushes the ball off its seat in the crankcase to expose the oilway to the timing bush. I do not have a case without a bush to hand, so I can't be sure of this. It could be that oil is just supposed to flow around the ball, in other words the ball is now a mobile obstruction to oil flow. The spring retaining plug diameter looks to be bigger than 1/4" so the oilway must be slightly bigger than the ball.

   On the A65 conversion in the link above it appears the 1/4" ball is in an oilway of the same diameter.  So, is this a good idea anyway?

  Anyone got a case in bits to check or is there  a more enlightened overview of oilflow to the  bush?

  I reckon removing the ball valve and an external safety tap would be better for your bearings.
   
  Swarfy

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Re: anti wet sump valve linked to mag cutout
« Reply #57 on: 02.11. 2018 09:43 »
 As ol' workbuddy used to say, ' are you  pickin' up what I'm putting down' and I'd say 'yep it's stuck to mah boot'....but I'm pickin' up what yo're puttin' down Swarfo....

 
Quote
.........SRM sell the same spring and ball for A10 and A65.....

  I've attached a pic of the bits I bought from SRM a while ago- maybe they changed their ideas  *conf2*, 2 identical balls & 2 springs; one is A10 and the other is A50/65.....FYI, The plug diameter is 0.365"/ 9.29mm, just under 3/8"...
 Not 100% certain which is which, but I think the A10 spring is the shorter one with less winds, if you really want to delve further, there's heaps of 'coil spring rate calculators' on the web

 When I first heard of this A65 concept, I figured there must be a way that the ball is contained in the case by some push-in upstream seat kinda setup, but apparently not so...

   And It just occurred to me  *bright idea* that in order to reduce loss of pressure,instead of a ball as a valve, maybe a Carby type float-needle valve may work better.... *dunno*...

   (unrelated but, in concept- I have a floor jack, that had a leaky bleed-down valve and as bits are un-obtainable, the only way I could fix it was to put a bit of cut-off Allen key with a groove around it in there so oil would still flow- yea had to be there )


Started building in about 1977/8 a on average '52 A10 -built from bits 'n pieces never resto intended -maybe 'personalised'
Have a '74 850T Moto Guzzi since '92-best thing I ever bought doesn't need a kickstart 'cos it bump starts sooooooooo(mostly) easy
Australia

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Re: anti wet sump valve linked to mag cutout
« Reply #58 on: 02.11. 2018 10:23 »
My Hardley is dry sump. Why doesn't it wet sump?
Various, including ...
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Re: anti wet sump valve linked to mag cutout
« Reply #59 on: 02.11. 2018 12:45 »
My Hardley is dry sump. Why doesn't it wet sump?

Stop that before someone says “Triumph!”