rocket goldstar

[alanp]

But, Alan,
                  The four lugs are not exclusively fitted to the RGS.

  Trev.

But they were for the RGS Trev.

Alan

[Triton Thrasher]

I expect that BSA were looking for subtle differences they could build into their RGS to make it difficult to easily copy 

I doubt that.  I expect they made a unique frame for the RGS for nonsensical "big company" non-reasons.

[Topdad]

Hi Alan and orabanda, I admire the depth of knowledge you guys have and the dedication to do a great job, obviously you're the people to ask a question that i've always taken as true but now need to clarify if pos. I've read ,even quite recently, that the RGS started off as Eddie Dow's "baby" and that he used goldie frames complete with oilpump bulge and that even the first run from the factory was goldie framed ,this was normal BSA pactice use up everything where pos and that it was only when 1) they suddenly realised how popular these things  that they created were,   2) that maybe they could earn a fair few bob from the states so was worth building a final run of a10 based frames. So guys what's your slant on this? and please I only ask 'cause i've always had a soft spot for them and is intended in no way to deter from your fine examples, which I'd love to be able to copy, regards and best wishes Bob Hebdon. ps Alan I may see you if you still go to the Paigton bash I've got relations there and I'm hankering to ride down to see them so who knows.

[alanp]

Bob, I've read various articles on this with different versions of the RGS history and to be honest I can't be absolutely sure but starting from the beginning, thinking about being in Eddy's shoes.
In my opinion it would make sense for Eddy to fit an A10 engine into a Gold Star frame because he's a performance/racer man and would be biased towards the running gear of a Goldie. I can't see Eddy using an SR as a base because of the work involved in getting decent brakes on it etc. (like the hassle we have to go through!) unless the supply of Goldies was temporarily restricted.  Even if a customer desperately wanted his SR converted it would have cost a lot due to the work involved so the owner would more likely have px'd his SR for one of Eddy's. Therefore, logically I expect the Eddy Dow originals had a Goldie lower frame kink, the Goldie tubular engine lug and shorter Goldie top frame gusset etc. etc. Anyone claiming that their RGS is an original 'Eddy' because its got a Goldie frame had better have Eddy's local shop registration plate on it or you can walk away.
BSA put their own twist on the RGS spec. when they came to produce 'their RGS' which is the spec RGSs are matched against when inspected these days together with frame number.
I have seen no believable documented evidence that BSA used Goldie frames for the initial batch of their RGSs for sale and then changed numerous details to the BSA RGS spec. we know today. Making those changes after they were on sale makes no sense at all especially when they had the unit engined bikes on the drawing board. Equally, did it make any sense for BSA to NOT use the Goldie as a base for all their RGSs and go and produce an RGS with further subtle differences for a known short production duration? I think not.
But it's BSA we talking about here so maybe............


Alan

[Topdad]

Good morning Alan, what you say does make sense particularly your last sentence !! I can concur with that has I worked in bike sales from end '65 for 5 yrs working for Liverpools best BSA/Trumpetdealer Victor Horsman who were main retail dealers and later Cundle motors who were BSA's main wholesale dealer . The stupidity that issued from Small Heath was amazing, memo's by the sack full ,every memo sent to Cundles we got a copy of ,which was helpful but most were aimed at spares with very little emphasis on sales of bikes. I rememberthat if you didn't order by some stupid date Feb you wouldn't get bikes in june july august then in SEPTEMBER /OCTOBER you'd be offered the bikes you had wanted and now couldn't sell at a dicounted price, total nightmare so re the RGS how they produced any at all is beyond me !! Glad they did though. best wishes Bob.

[townsends20]

 Hi Alan / Bob & All
     As you can see from my previous posts I have been in a kind of stasis for the last 35 + years regarding the classic scene until finding this rgs and then finding the forum. I am enjoying all your posts some good info. Your thoughts please, I found this bike completely striped including   crankcase, all in boxes in a friends  leaky old shed, been there for 35+ years it was his brother- in -laws bike, he had died some years back. If I had not seen it and exprest interest  it would have gone to the scrap yard! he was quite happy to let me have it ( I did'nt know it was a rgs at this time)! That was two years ago. This is what I have done so far, your opinion would  appreciated, it must have been a café racer in its time with all Eddie Dow parts most of them I have put back but not the central tank or the alloy top steering yoke I thought best to put these back to standard and it gives me handle bar options. On building the engine I  made some modifications, primary drive on dry belt, dynamo on SRM belt also SRM wet sump valve & p.r. Valve. And an external oil filter, that is the only modification that can be seen. I was thinking of selling some of the original parts to recoup some funds (about £4000 up to date) e.g. the clutch & cush and parts replaced that only needed re- chroming or do you think I should keep them as part of the package. I did manage to find all the Eddie Dow receipts and many others relating to this bike. Once again I fully intend to get some time on it. Should be fun after 30+ years, still its just like riding a bike, (isnt it?) Waiting for a carb and that should be it!!!!!!!!!
   ps. I have started to talk to it now!
                                        Steve

[alanp]

Steve, impressive documentation!!!
We hate pointing out things which are not 'strictly correct' for fear of setting off criticism for pointing them out, if you know what I mean, but you did ask.
The oil filter position is novel but will detract from the RGS image, why not fit it away in the tool box? I certainly applaud fitting an oil cooler if long'ish high speed runs are contemplated. With an RGS cam and high compression the oil gets very hot otherwise.
The inner primary looks like the '50s version which was short where it comes over the gearbox sprocket, the RGS version extended further rearwards.
The engine plates look like aluminium, which I used on my Gold Star but they are not 'strictly correct' for an RGS.
Looking at the previous photos you posted, it seems you have mounted the rear sets directly to the frame mounting point but there would normally have been kinked plates between the footrests and the mount points.
The outer primary cover also looks like a '50s cover.
The headlight shell looks like a modern non RGS version, but if the RGS one was in the bits that came with the bike and is still in your possession don't throw it away no matter what condition it's in, they are virtually impossible to find and fetch silly money.
Regarding the top yoke you mentioned, the RGS top yoke did not have a hole for a steering lock e.g. Gold Star type, but I don't know what you fitted.
The front mudguard is mounted in the Gold Star manner, i.e. separate straps under the mudguard bolted through the mudguard. The RGS straps were part of the mudguard and so no bolt heads showed on it's outer face.
If you aren't using clip ons then RGSs would be fitted with chromed ears for the headlamp. With clip ons, instead of fork gaiters there would be black tubes covering the fork springs. You could consider doing what the Motor Cycle magazine showed in their 22 Nov '62 road test and use upturned touring bars, that's what I did.
Hope this helps, I will go away now and put my tin hat on!
Alan 

[Topdad]

Hi Steve, all I would say is that this is the stuff of dreams ...well at least my dreams..... . that would be being asked to clear out a shed of bike "remains" and they turn out to be DBD34 CLUBMANS OR VeloThruxton and not least theres def an RGS or even all 3 plus dare I say a '68 Bonnie and now I've heard from someone who it actually happened to ...I think I feel the need for some of Muskrats Pills and a darkened padded cell  so I can slow my imagination down !!! Seriously it's great that you're returning it to the road i hope you have a good few years enjoying it ,i'm just off to ask permission to look in all the sheds in my area .... you never know your luck , i could be some time ,Best wishes Bob hebdon.

[alanp]

Bob, I've heard of an ancient Ducati in a shed in the area which will be investigated by yours truly post haste.
ps I'm also a Ducati nut case as well as a BSA one!
Alan

[townsends20]

Hi Alan
              No need for the tin hat mate, I need to get it right, appreciated the input some things I can't do anything about due to to much being spent to date I did check your oil filter out good I wish I had seen it before I will see to that at a later date. Were did you put the reg box? You might be right about the primary but I know there hard to come by most got cut down, I have looked! Can you post a photo of the rear sets so I can see for myself. The headlamp shell that came with it I think is from  another model but I still have it, as regarding the top yoke I have the original as I don't think the superleggera yoke ever got fitted (looks new)  and I don't think I have a chance of getting the right front mudguard. I got the headlamp brackets and the gaiters early in the build I can live with them. I have got ace bars on at the moment, I have also got some touring bars and already decided to use them a bit more comfort.
                      Thanks again. Steve

[trevinoz]

Alan,
       Have a good look at the 1962 road test of the RGS.
The inner primary case appears to be a "short" one but mine has a "long" one.
I have a long one fitted to my '55 Flash and another ready for the '54 RR.
Short ones with a hole drilled in the raised section would likely have been on a full width hub bike.
The muffler fitted is the long cigar shaped item as was fitted to mine and the other two which were bought new in my area.
Two had 190mm front brakes and one [mine] had 8"
My '62 SR has a four lug frame as do several others that I know of.
The four lug frame was also used on the South Australian Police bikes but had a steering lock and FWH yokes.
I know of at least one of these that became a RGS replica, probably the easiest one to do as all of the hard work was already done by the factory.
I have had my RGS since about 1970 when they were nothing special.
Even at that young age it had been modified with a newer chromed headlight and tear-drop badge petrol tank after an accident. Luckily I got the tank and since had it repaired.
I have a headlight shell with a plug but don't have the mating bit.

Trev.

[alanp]

Hi Trev, this is a fascinating subject.
The mating plug/socket for the RGS headlight is nowhere to be obtained these days. Believe it or not but I had one complete with original loom some 7/8 years ago but the plug/socket rubber had badly perished over the years and I threw it away, thinking that they must still be available...idiot!
Yes, I had spotted the older style inner primary on the Motor Cycle test bike, the mind boggles as to why it's on there in November 1962. The '62 model SRs with full width hubs and RGSs I've seen have the long primary inner. BSA using up old stock again?
Also the silencer is the cigar type, as you say, which they might have fitted because it is in touring spec. and not expected to take bends like the clubman's spec riders. To support this theory the test bike is in full touring trim with non rear set footrests which would have restricted cornering. I'm only guessing here since I had to 'bash' a tapered flat on my cigar type silencer back in the old days, more or less similar to the taper on the Goldie type silencer, to avoid road contact when cornering enthusiastically with rear sets. I don't recommend the cigar type for the clubman's spec with rear sets.
In 21 Jun '62 Motor Cycle the BSA advert shows an RGS with rear sets and Goldie silencer, much more sensible. It also doesn't have clip ons but an upturned handlebar, gaiters and chrome headlamp ears.
It's common knowledge that you could have either an 8" Goldie or a 190mm front brake, I'm not sure about other options, anyone know for sure any others and were export versions the same as home market models?
So, one other outstanding question now is whether BSA actually sold RGSs in full touring spec as per the November '62 test bike...or am I getting too deep into this????
Pass the straight jacket someone....
Cheers
Alan

[alanp]

Hi Alan
               Can you post a photo of the rear sets so I can see for myself.

Steve, hope this photo of the part which mounts the rear sets helps.
Alan

[townsends20]

Thanks Alan
    It all makes sense now as it seemed a bit close I will have another look in the boxes with the other bike ( don't get excited it is only a 250 mz)  if not any  idea were I can get some?
      Have a look at the headlamp that came with it what's it off ?  The lens is original Lucas but badly scratched I might try and polish them out sometime. The shell is in good nick.

[alanp]

Thanks Alan
    It all makes sense now as it seemed a bit close I will have another look in the boxes with the other bike ( don't get excited it is only a 250 mz)  if not any  idea were I can get some?
      Have a look at the headlamp that came with it what's it off ?  The lens is original Lucas but badly scratched I might try and polish them out sometime. The shell is in good nick.

You should be able to get the rear set hangers from the usual BSA bits suppliers e.g. Lyford Classics, George Prew (his telephone manner sounds abrupt but he's as good as gold really), etc etc they are the same for the rear sets on Gold Stars as well. If you need their phone numbers, let me know. Watch out though you will also need the fancy pins which go into the frame lugs and they are different left from right to give clearance for the rear brake pedal assembly.
The headlamp is not familiar to me, but I've led a sheltered life!
Alan